Long Term Fillers - is it possible?

OK, I didn't leave for good. I tried asking about sanding techniques in a thread a few weeks ago, but nobody answered it.

It seems to be a surface protection forum then!

@SVR - Matt, you talk about long term fillers in several posts. Can you elaborate on what you are filling with and how.

I use SCDG from RMP, as you know. In my opinion (so far), it doesn't really fill that much. Only very, very light swirl marks when a few coats are applied with DA. Its a waste of time doing that. Use a polish first with the DA and get rid of the light swirls, then use the SCDG. P1 with a soft pad doesn't remove anything that can be measured with a gauge (unless you are a lunatic with it!) so its not hazardous to finish or UV protection, etc.

But I am wondering how you achieve the filling that you claim to get. I have tried a few other of these carbon-silicon bonding products, but I don't see a good fill and a long-term fill is needed on modern clear coats. Especially Japanese car paint like Lexus, Mitsubishi, Nissan, etc. (although I do most work on German cars with Glasurit BASF, Sikkens, etc. I would have thought the Jap scientists would have had a vinyl-benzyl functional resin that can fill like that in the long-term, but still most manufacturers are using the Dow-Corning resins that only give short-term epoxy-functional seal and fill.

What's your secret then? You using an extra catalyst or something? I know you get funny stuff from Glare or FireGlaze chemists.... spill the beans, mate.

Profile Detailer

Glad you did not leave for good.

Profile

I do not have alot of experience in this area, but Opti- Coat says it is permanent.
If you use a compound to level the clear and remove the damage (scratches, tree sap
marks as examples). By applying the Opti-Coat are you not filling in the clear and thickening it at the same time?

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billd55
"I do not have alot of experience in this area" By applying the Opti-Coat are you not filling in the clear and thickening it at the same time?

No. Opti-Coat does not fill defects.

I've also seen and used products that fill minor defects, but none lasted anymore than a few washes. I'd love to see how a product permanantly(or long term) fills swirls.

I am confused. Here is a vehicle that has scratches all over it. Are these not defects? Opti-Coat is used here, and it appears they are gone. When you refer to defects do you mean swirl marks only?

[truthindetailing.com]


Quote:

I've also seen and used products that fill minor defects, but none lasted anymore than a few washes. I'd love to see how a product permanantly(or long term) fills swirls.

Me to. Although, for anything to last it must bond to the clear coat. By using
dawn, or whatever method to remove the wax and other things does not guarantee
they are completely removed, or the surface is clean. Now, by using a compound it will more than likely remove the remaining residue.

Unless the filler can bond to the clear coat like Opti- Coat does,it will never last more than a few washes. The solution to the problem as I see it is to realize that conventional fillers and glazes are what they are, and look for a reason for the problem you are trying to solve.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2011 06:15PM by billd55.

Quote
billd55
I am confused. Here is a vehicle that has scratches all over it. Are these not defects? Opti-Coat is used here, and it appears they are gone. When you refer to defects do you mean swirl marks only?

[truthindetailing.com]

You're most likely confused because you're assuming that because Opti-Coat was used by this person that it is what removed the swirl marks? Wrong. You should go back and re-read the thread. The detailer in question did use Opti-Coat, but AFTER polishing with this process that he clearly listed in the beginning of his thread:

"Megs MF 3" cutting pads with D300 to remove larger scratches
LC 4" and 5.5" Tangerine Hydrotech pads with Optimum Hyper Polish as 1 step"
>>>
"After, I probably got 75% correction overall."


Defects are usually considered any imperfection in the top coat of the finish. This includes and is not limited to car wash swirls, buffer swirls, light/medium/heavy scratches as well as contaminants like water spots, overspray and acid rain.

Ok, so I see that Opti-Coat does not cover up defects,but it does thicken the clear coat. If you remove the defects through correction using whatever pad, polish,or
compound to whatever level of perfection. A product like opti- coat makes more sense to use than a wax or sealant when a paint finish is in this condition.

In this case minor polishing toned down these scratches, and the Opti-Coat made the finish permanent. Is that not what you are looking for?

Wet sanding could be used to remove deep defects to a point, and Opti-Coat could thicken the clear coat back to specs thickness. This way you are not covering up the defects, but truly removing them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2011 07:58PM by billd55.

The only way to "thicken up" the clear coat is to have a body shop apply more. Even though Opti-Coat has similar characteristics/technology to clear coat, it's different. Think of it as more of a true sacrifical barrier where your paint is not.

You seem pretty excited about Opti-Coat. Are you planning on splurging and trying some for yourself?

The only thing that I ever saw on the internet was a product called X-Cote but I don't know if I like the look of it. Its basically clear-coat.

[www.x-kote.com]

Its a whole franchise thing though, so no good to me.

Quote:
Even though Opti-Coat has similar characteristics/technology to clear coat, it's different. Think of it as more of a true sacrifical barrier where your paint is not.

Now I am confused? I thought it was permanent, and now you imply that it is
a sacrificial barrier like wax.

I can see doing some correction to remove scratches on certain cars I do. On the video I posted of the blue Mercedes you will see minor scratches on the trunk.
Gem sells a clear coat compound that I have been considering using with a foam
pad to see if I can remove them without creating swirl marks.


If I can remove them then I will go to protection full time by applying AT-5.
From what I have seen on forums that once damage occurs to your clear it may not be removed. Like I have said many times: protect first, and you will not have to
correct it. That is why I like to deal with customers with new cars. Here is why.

[www.youtube.com]

[www.youtube.com]

Are you putting on 7 coats one right after the other when new? or is the application over a long time?

One will do, but some customers want two. If two coats a year then every six months,
or once a year for one.The key to the protection IMO is to reapply the sealant every year.By doing this you avoid correcting the clear for defects, and stripping
the finish of waxes, fillers ,and glazes. I takes me around 3 hours to wash, and apply by hand to the glass, plastic,aluminum, and chrome on the car. Figure it takes 2-3 ozs of product at $55.00/gal per car.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2011 03:20AM by billd55.

So are you saying you don't do any polishing before applying the sealant on the second, third round etc?

Basically yes. I may need to use a clay bar for something like over spray, or stuck on grime that will not come off with the Dawn wash. Gem sells an excellent pre-cleaner that is used prior to applying the AT-5 that I also use for boats
to remove salt on the gel coat.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2011 04:48PM by billd55.

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buffer bill
Now I am confused?

Ok. I’ll try and type slow and clear and hopefully you can follow better this time…

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buffer bill
I thought it was permanent, and now you imply that it is
a sacrificial barrier like wax.

Where did I say or imply Opti-Coat is like wax?????? It IS permanent and wax/sealants are not! Period. Please understand this concept once and for all.

It’s a true sacrificial barrier where in my opinion wax/sealants are not. Why? Because OC adds real protection from damaging effects where wax/sealants cannot. Things like acid rain, water spots, overspray, contamination, wash marring can easily penetrate a wax/sealant and cause damage to the paint. The coating blocks these things from attacking the paint because it acts like a mini force field if you will. Most marring, etching and contamination would be contained in the top portion of the coating. Not the paint. Plus, the coating can be lightly polished where wax/sealants cannot. That, to me, is a true sacrificial barrier because you are preserving the paint under the coating.

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buffer bill
If I can remove them then I will go to protection full time by applying AT-5.

I seriously doubt AT-5 is offering “full time protection”. Especially from marring seeing that all the vehicle’s you’ve posted videos of that have been treated with this product are marred to high hell. To me that tells me that the cars aren’t maintained properly and the sealant isn’t doing anything to stop the marring from occurring.

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buffer bill
From what I have seen on forums that once damage occurs to your clear it may not be removed.

What do you consider as “damage”? Unless the “damage” has broken through the clear coat, it’s most likely repairable. I don’t know how you can consider yourself a professional Detailer and not know this? And they call you Buffer Bill? Geesh....

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buffer bill
Like I have said many times: protect first, and you will not have to
correct it.

Protecting a surface with a sealant and the requirement to have it corrected have no common element. It’s appearent from the cars you keep posting videos of. You show them after you’d applied your AT-5 and the finish is just as swirled after as it was before.

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buffer bill
The key to the protection IMO is to reapply the sealant every year.By doing this you avoid correcting the clear for defects, and stripping the finish of waxes, fillers ,and glazes.

Get this concept out of your head Bill. Nothing could be further from the truth and your own videos prove it.. You could apply AT-5 every month and you’d still get surface scratching from the wash process. Especially on the cars you personally maintain as it’s obvious from how covered in swirls they are in your videos. It really shows that you don’t have any clue how to wash cars without damaging them.

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buffer bill
That is why I like to deal with customers with new cars.

I think you like dealing with customers with new cars because you can fool them into what your product does. Mainly because most new car owners don’t notice paint defects and think their brand new car is perfect. You then come in claiming this holy protection product is god’s gift to their paint. Am I accurate??

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buffer bill
[www.youtube.com]

[www.youtube.com]

Ist off, both of these videos are a joke. You could scrub the paint on the pearl white Lexus with a brillo pad and it would still look perfect with how you deliberately choose to film the finish shaded by the sun. That video means and tells anyone with common sense about paint care nothing. You then claim that it’s cloudy, but that’s just another excuse as to why the defects aren’t visible.

The video of the pearl red Lexus tells us the same thing UNTIL near the end when you quickly catch a full sun shot of the trunk. And them POW….swirls galore!!! That car is a mess. I can’t see how you consider yourself a professional and claim these cars are perfect and they’re the exact opposite? What’s even more insulting to your credibility is that they have low miles, are garage kept and have 6-8 coats of your miracle sealant on them! Misrepresentation at its finest!

Pro, the only one bill is fooling is himself .....

It is really easy to be a critic, and make statements about things you have no real experience with, or even tried.

I have not said one bad thing about Opti-Coat as far about protection because I have not tried it. I have concerns about it for several reasons. The main one is that I have seen products like this one in the past that had problems with them.
Time will tell if this product really works.

Quote by Pro-Techt:
I think you like dealing with customers with new cars because you can fool them into what your product does. Mainly because most new car owners don’t notice paint defects and think their brand new car is perfect. You then come in claiming this holy protection product is god’s gift to their paint. Am I accurate??

No. This logic is soo ass backwards I really do not think I could explain it to you in a way that would make sense to you. Why, because you have never tried AT-5.
You think it is no different than a normal wax or sealant, and that is where you do not get it.


Quote by Pro-Techt:

Especially on the cars you personally maintain as it’s obvious from how covered in swirls they are in your videos. It really shows that you don’t have any clue how to wash cars without damaging them.

Covered with swirls? These cars are damaged? Really!


Quote from Pro-Techt:

What do you consider as “damage”? Unless the “damage” has broken through the clear coat, it’s most likely repairable. I don’t know how you can consider yourself a professional Detailer and not know this? And they call you Buffer Bill? Geesh....


Well I would consider this damage.

[truthindetailing.com]

Can this mess be repaired without fillers, glazes, or waxes?

Your Quote:


I've also seen and used products that fill minor defects, but none lasted anymore than a few washes. I'd love to see how a product permanantly(or long term) fills swirls.

Well, IMO if it cannot be fixed permanently it is damaged. If you think the cars
in my videos look anything like this Jeep than who is fooling who. I can wash
any of these cars with Dawn, and they will NEVER look like this turd.

Quote from Pro-Techt:

You could scrub the paint on the pearl white Lexus with a brillo pad and it would still look perfect with how you deliberately choose to film the finish shaded by the sun. That video means and tells anyone with common sense about paint care nothing. You then claim that it’s cloudy, but that’s just another excuse as to why the defects aren’t visible.


Here is a 2011 white porsche, and you can plainly see scratches all over this
car. It only has 6K on it, and it already needs correction. Anyone without a
huge ego could see scratches on the white 08 Lexus if they were actually there.

You will notice that these pictures of the Porsche were taken out of the sun,
and I can see the scratches and marring very easily.


[truthindetailing.com]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2011 06:38PM by billd55.

What is "stupid" and what is "smart"?
we're all quick to judge whether one persons either smart or stupid, but is there really actually a line drawn between the two that makes it easy to see?


Actually, there is a line that is quite easy to discern. Stupidity manifests itself in a person's lack of ability to assimilate information and to use that information. This is the type that continues to make the same mistake over and over, not understanding what is wrong. An intelligent, or "smart" person assimilates data easily and is able to use that data to accomplish a chosen goal. To put ignorance in perspective, we are all ignorant to some extent about something, as the word simply means lack of knowledge. No one knows everything.


Define Dumbass

A person who thinks they know something and refuses to accept the truth of their knowledge



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2011 02:52PM by billd55.

Quote
billd55
It is really easy to be a critic, and make statements about things you have no real experience with, or even tried.

I’m pretty clear what AT-5 is all about. It’s nothing more than a basic paint sealant. Nothing special. What matters is that you lie about how it stops swirls from occurring which in fact it doesn’t. Your videos brutally prove this.

Quote
billd55
I have not said one bad thing about Opti-Coat as far about protection because I have not tried it. I have concerns about it for several reasons. The main one is that I have seen products like this one in the past that had problems with them.
Time will tell if this product really works.

Time has proven that Opti-Coat does work. It’s been in the hands of several testers all over the planet for over 7 years without any problems. I’ve personally had it on my car for over 16 months and it’s no different then day one. I will assure you that you’ve never “seen products like this”. Stop trying to play devil’s advocate just make yourself look distinguished. It doesn’t work.

Quote
billd55
No. This logic is soo ass backwards I really do not think I could explain it to you in a way that would make sense to you. Why, because you have never tried AT-5.
You think it is no different than a normal wax or sealant, and that is where you do not get it.

Bill, I’ve asked you this multiple times and each time you avoid my question……What products have you used to make any judgement comparatively?

Quote
billd55
Covered with swirls? These cars are damaged? Really!

They are. Look at the trunk section of the red Lexus and it looks pathetic. You should be ashamed to claim that you maintain these vehicles. It quite pathetic actually.

Quote
billd55
Well I would consider this damage.

[truthindetailing.com]

Can this mess be repaired without fillers, glazes, or waxes?

Yes. I would call this damage. But it’s correctable and I’m quite certain it was. Why? Because it was completed by a well known detailer named Bryan Burnworth. His work speaks for himself. I’ve sent multiple clients his way and every one has been blown away by the results.

Quote
billd55
Well, IMO if it cannot be fixed permanently it is damaged. If you think the cars
in my videos look anything like this Jeep than who is fooling who. I can wash
any of these cars with Dawn, and they will NEVER look like this turd.

There you go again making up imaginary claims. I never claimed the cars in your video looked like the Jeep. If you look at the Jeep again, it’s clear that it is covered in rotary halograms from a rotary buffer. Your client’s vehicles are scratched from improper washing. The only common denominator to both vehicles is that a hack created both problems.

Quote
billd55
Here is a 2011 white porsche, and you can plainly see scratches all over this
car. It only has 6K on it, and it already needs correction. Anyone without
huge ego could see scratches on the white Lexus if they were actually there.

You will notice that these pictures of the Porsche were taken out of the sun,
and I can see the scratches and marring very easily.


[truthindetailing.com]

This vehicle repair was completed by a well known detailer Bob Willis. He’s highly successful at not only capturing defects on film (unlike you), but even better at professionally removing them.

I’ll say this again. Your videos are pathetic. They don’t show the finish in an accurate state. Most of your footage is shaded, which can make anything look ok. The moment you pan into the sun the paint shows the real condition. Which is horrible. Especially your buddies Expedition. That was a joke. Are you denying that the trunk on the red Lexus is swirled up?

You’re the Casey Anthony of the detail world. You are fooled my your own self delusional concept of paint care. The only difference is that you kill the paint on your client’s vehicles. Please keep going as it digs your credibility further into the sand.

Quote: Bill, I’ve asked you this multiple times and each time you avoid my question……What products have you used to make any judgement comparatively?

Well let me see. I can wash may car with Dawn soap, and I have no problems at all.
Can you do that with any standard wax? Why do correction detailers use Dawn to strip wax and poly sealants?

Quote:
Yes. I would call this damage. But it’s correctable and I’m quite certain it was. Why? Because it was completed by a well known detailer named Bryan Burnworth. His work speaks for himself.


Is it really? That jeep is a 06 that has been completed repainted once. Sure,
he can put more glazes, fillers,and wax on it to cover the damage, put a couple of Dawn washes will bring it right back to this condition.

Quote:

Your client’s vehicles are scratched from improper washing. The only common denominator to both vehicles is that a hack created both problems.

Where are these scratches you mention? They must be in your head. Really,
I am done talking to you with you because it is like talking to a wall.

Quote:

I’m pretty clear what AT-5 is all about. It’s nothing more than a basic paint sealant. Nothing special. What matters is that you lie about how it stops swirls from occurring which in fact it doesn’t. Your videos brutally prove this.


I am sure you do not have a clue about anything relating to AT-5, and I am really sick of your insults plus calling me a liar. I have shown many examples of my work, but have not seen any of yours.

Quote
buffer bill the eluder

Well let me see. I can wash may car with Dawn soap, and I have no problems at all.
Can you do that with any standard wax? Why do correction detailers use Dawn to strip wax and poly sealants?

You must have a problem with reading comprehension. Unless Dawn is the name of a wax/sealant, you’re skirting around my direct question again. And what is a “standard wax”. Can you name a few you’re used?

Quote
buffer bill the reading disabled
Is it really? That jeep is a 06 that has been completed repainted once. Sure,
he can put more glazes, fillers,and wax on it to cover the damage, put a couple of Dawn washes will bring it right back to this condition.

Are you retarded?? This detailer did not use any glazes, filler or wax on this Jeep. He stripped what the last detailer used prior to detailing it. If you knew more about correcting paint this would sink into your head.

Quote
bill the blind detailer
Where are these scratches you mention? They must be in your head. Really,
I am done talking to you with you because it is like talking to a wall.

Between the 2:10 to 2:16 mark. [www.youtube.com]
Swirls galore.
Bill…Do you know what a swirl is???

Quote
bill the upset car waxer
I am sure you do not have a clue about anything relating to AT-5, and I am really sick of your insults plus calling me a liar. I have shown many examples of my work, but have not seen any of yours.

You’re either a bad liar or you have a severe learning disability. The only examples of your “work”(I’d use that term loosely) is either swirled up messes or video shot of shaded vehicles that don’t show anything. Why don’t you try pulling these cars in a dark garage and filming the finish under a halogen light. I bet you’d shit your pants with how screwed up the finish is. I dare you……

Quote
Profile Detailer
OK, I didn't leave for good. I tried asking about sanding techniques in a thread a few weeks ago, but nobody answered it.

It seems to be a surface protection forum then!

@SVR - Matt, you talk about long term fillers in several posts. Can you elaborate on what you are filling with and how.

I use SCDG from RMP, as you know. In my opinion (so far), it doesn't really fill that much. Only very, very light swirl marks when a few coats are applied with DA. Its a waste of time doing that. Use a polish first with the DA and get rid of the light swirls, then use the SCDG. P1 with a soft pad doesn't remove anything that can be measured with a gauge (unless you are a lunatic with it!) so its not hazardous to finish or UV protection, etc.

But I am wondering how you achieve the filling that you claim to get. I have tried a few other of these carbon-silicon bonding products, but I don't see a good fill and a long-term fill is needed on modern clear coats. Especially Japanese car paint like Lexus, Mitsubishi, Nissan, etc. (although I do most work on German cars with Glasurit BASF, Sikkens, etc. I would have thought the Jap scientists would have had a vinyl-benzyl functional resin that can fill like that in the long-term, but still most manufacturers are using the Dow-Corning resins that only give short-term epoxy-functional seal and fill.

What's your secret then? You using an extra catalyst or something? I know you get funny stuff from Glare or FireGlaze chemists.... spill the beans, mate.

Hi Profile. I am really impressed with your knowledge, yes alot use Dow Cornings silicone resins which is dissappointing since its nasty stuff

Never heard of vinyl - benzyl resin, sounds cool
I saw a video for X Kote and it looked promising, there is an Australian agent applying it

here is what rob earle says about long term fillers

There are these filling type products already out on the market – we’ve dabbled in them too and to be honest the quality of finish is always substandard as you are essentially applying a layer of clear coat without a spray gun and every formula we’ve looked at is prone to yellowing.

Renny Doyle of Detailing success, who I know quite well and wants to work with me some time, said this
X-kote...wonderful but very specialized situations, pretty nasty odor and therefore I think a tad harmful to ones health but on gels...WOW!!!! Would love to see you

anyway, the way to get great filling is with Glare Zero (the australian version) with fan heaters or just use it on a hot day (the hotter the more they fill), Glare Knockout and or Micro Finish then a few coats of Infinity then Advanced a few times.

The Restructure Marine Crystal Diamond Glaze and Water Based marine polish are great and I use them alot but they dont have the filling power of Zero, knockout and micro

The filling effect is long term but not permanent. its not that far beyond sealants
to make the filling last, I use infinity ultra wash in semi waterless or fully wet style washing and also coat the paint in many layers of secret sauce, my pour on and also spray on wipe in glass in a bottle product.

of course the filling will go away if you use dawn, truck wash or some harsh degreaser on the paint. but unlike traditional products, the glossy finish and protection doesn't go away. the paint wont oxidise at all for at least five years

What I use is the Australian GLARE products. The stuff sold everywhere else is watered down in the case of ultra wash and their pure polishes/sealants contain less active ingredient and drying agent. something like 60/40 or 70/30 where our aussie stuff is made for the australian distributor to his preference and is more like mid to high 90's percent active ingredient

When in America last year, I tested out the american glare stuff and its the wrong colour, much drier, have to use more and cant get the results that ours can

In saying all this though, the glare and restructure marine products are far from perfect and as for protection, its right up there with the best but its not as good as some of the Japanese glass coatings like Ark Barrier, Crystal Process and the American and European stuff (Gtechniq, Nanovere) in terms of technology

glare is easy to do but is all wipe on buff in whereas they are wipe on, wipe off

OPTI COAT I dont like in terms of its water sheeting durability but its a dynamite product for adding an actual layer of synthetic clear coat which glare is not quite as good as.

That's very interesting about heat with the Glare products. I wonder if I could get Glare to redirect some of the Australian product to me. Last time I was in touch with Glare, they denied that there was a different version so I just dropped the conversation.

I'm currently testing a prototype nano-polish like P1 but is actually better in many ways. I am trying to get the designer to add some more particle concentrate to increase cutting power slightly.

Glass coatings I like. I use CQuartz and its terrific. They have just modified the product to give even better protection against water-spotting by adding better catalyst and another component to prevent calcium from merging with the silica.

Cquartz is excellent. I like that alot. Have been on the phone with AVI from Cyprus who sells it

I must get some later this year and play with it some more

Dont bother yourself with Glare HQ in Nevada or Cali, they will deny their is a difference but trust me there is.
Zero was made for the Australian distributor as he disliked knockout by itself and needed something to clean the paint more

This was all done at significant financial cost to the aussie distributor who is also a custom painter and detailer. 6 number figures.

I didnt totally believe the guy until I went to America last year and used the american gear, wow what a difference. the foam pads are wrong, product application is wrong and products are so thick, gluggy and nowhere near the same

It doesn't make sense that they keep a second rate product in a huge market like the US and send better goods to the other side of the world. Strange company indeed. Perhaps its VOC issues or something.

yeah I agree. perry the sales guy is a weird one.