Question about swirl marks on new cars

STAN M

Re: Thanks everyonse for your input.
June 28, 2003 11:16AM

Registered: 17 years ago
Posts: 98

<HTML>THERE IS NO HARM DONE WE ALL NEED YOUR INSIGHT INTO HELPFUL IDEAS WE JUST DON'T NEED LONG DEBATES. DO THAT IN E-MAIL. THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP. "ALL OF YOU PEOPLE."</HTML>

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Anthony Orosco

Re: Thanks everyonse for your input.
June 28, 2003 02:21PM

Registered: 17 years ago
Posts: 466

<HTML>Hey folks,

I wish to add a few thoughts here. I own and use 3 rotaries, 2 Cyclos and 1 PC, plus an old Heavy Duty Gem orbital that now acts as a huge door stop smiling smiley

Bud your statements CAN be, and is, misleading in that you make a blanket statement of "The random orbital WILL NOT remove ANY scratch or flaw in the paint" It would be best to state that "depending on the type or depth of the scratch or flaw" Would you not agree?

Here in Texas when a person takes their SUV or truck out in the sage brush for hunting they get what we call "Texas pinstriping". Thousands of fine, and sometimes deep, scratches from the front bumper to the rear and back again. I have personally removed the fine scratches with both the PC and the Cyclo using foam pads and a selection of cleaners and polishes.

Now will they remove or correct the deeper ones, ones that leave a depression that you can feel? Well no they can't do that because one must level the surrounding paint down to the level of the scratch and for that you need heat and friction, applied very carefully. BUT if one is able to spend the time on one area with only the PC, or beter yet the Cyclo, one can greatly improve the look and appearance of those deeper scratches.

I favor the dual head because it will out last and out perform the PC. The PC will bog down if one applies too much pressure but the Cyclo will continue to work and it takes more pressure for it to bog down. I do agree with you, and have said in the past, that orbitals are best used for polish and final wax/sealant application but when used with proper pads and product they can perform some miracles.

Also the dual head is more aggressive in its action, fits the hand better and has a better balance, IMHO. Many cars I do will get done with the orbitals first and if it seems like the paint is not responding well then I break out my Metabo, or one of the others, and go at it with a bit more speed but to suggest that an orbital can do "NO" scratch removal at all is too far of a blanket statement and can be misleading. Again, my personal opinion here for in reality we are speaking of a subjective matter.

Take care all,
Anthony</HTML>

Details, Details, Details....It's all in the details!
www.UltimateReflections.NET

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Bud Abraham

Re: Thanks everyonse for your input.
June 28, 2003 03:58PM

Registered: 17 years ago
Posts: 3,550

<HTML>Anthony:

A thoughtful and well stated posting. Yes, I would agree with your comments, clarified as you have stated them about orbitals.

What I tend to challenge are blanket statements, like "orbitals remove scratches and swirls."

There are many impressionable new detailers and car enthusiasts on this forum looking for accurate information and those of us in the industry who have the knowledge and experience need to insure that we do not make "blanket, generalized statements" that appear to be FACT.

There is nothing personal in anything I say or challenge, it is simply a difference of opinion, which is also good for people looking for information in that they can read for themselves differences of opinion between those of us with more experience than they and decide for themselves.

My background was education and law and I always want to insure that what I say and what I read is accurate.

So to say that orbitals remove swirls and scratches is, in itself, a general statement that needs the clarification you having so aptly provided.

Back to the technical side-------when you say remove do you mean "cover" or really remove?

If you are saying "remove" how do you know that they have been removed and not just covered???

What process do you use to insure that the scratches or swirls are really gone and will not show up again after the wax/sealant has worn off?

Thanks
Bud Abraham</HTML>

buda

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Anthony Orosco

Re: Thanks everyonse for your input.
June 29, 2003 04:47AM

Registered: 17 years ago
Posts: 466

<HTML>Hey Bud,

Thanks for the words.

When I say "remove" I mean I can actually remove "fine" scratches, swirls and even light water spots with an orbital, such as the PC or the Cyclo.

I know they are gone because I do not use any polish that contains any fillers. Also I almost always wipe down those areas with a water/alcohol mixture which would remove any fillers if I used them.

So I again state that if you have the time, correct pad choice and product choice then the Cyclo and the PC can and will remove swirls, scratches other stuff to a certain degree. Heavy swirls? No. Deep scratches that one can feel with their nail? No. Hard water etching? No.

Adios,
Anthony</HTML>

Details, Details, Details....It's all in the details!
www.UltimateReflections.NET

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Steve Smoker

Re: Thanks everyonse for your input.
June 30, 2003 05:24AM

Registered: 17 years ago
Posts: 30

<HTML>I use a PC pretty often too.

Here in Utah we also get alot of hunting brush scratches downn the side of SUVs.
The other favourite is where some nice chap rubs a dusty panel with his hand causing marring.

I've removed both.
Not hidden, REMOVED.

As Mr. Orosco said, I also use a paint cleanser with no fillers prior to topping off the finish as I dont want my customers seeing all the junk coming back as the glaze wears off.

Depending on the paint (OEM or refinish) I can sometimes take out door lock key scratches too.
All depends on the vehicle and its paint.

I find with the PC I can go pretty heavy with the abrasive as its doesnt cause the heat and friction a rotary does.
It also leaves me no hazing or swirls to remove afterwards.
Maybe thats alot to do with Meguiars nice diminishing abrasives.

Now, I agree a rotary will level the paint a damn sight faster and prolly produce a superior finish.

BUT

I also stand a hell of a bigger chance of making a hideous mess of the customers car.

Just my 0.02</HTML>

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Brian Ash

Re: Thanks everyonse for your input.
June 30, 2003 01:17PM

Registered: 17 years ago
Posts: 14

<HTML>Thank you Anthony and Steve for backing my opinion on this. I am sure that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people using orbitals to remove slight scratches and swirl marks from their vehicles as well. I also think that Irene was right - she apparently was misunderstood, because she was saying the same thing I was. I think it's a shame that someone with as much to offer as she has was driven away from the board because of the dissection of her wording. Why does everything have to be so severely scrutinized and picked apart? We all knew what she was trying to say. To come right out and state that "the orbital cannot correct paint" is just plain wrong. I think Bud owes someone an apology.

Unlike others here, I have no vested interest in any product - all I know is what works. The PC will ABSOLUTELY remove minor scratches and swirls marks, period.

How can someone come out and say that these machines are merely applicators when the results speak for themselves? I guess that maybe just because one is not aware of products that can perform these tasks, they assume that it cannot be done. I believe some more exposure to new and different products is in order before passing such demeaning judgement on such a beneficial tool to any good detailer. It's hard to be objective with horse blinders on....</HTML>

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Irene

Re: Thanks everyonse for your input.
July 01, 2003 04:57AM

Registered: 17 years ago
Posts: 33

<HTML>Brian, Steve and Anthony I appreciate the time you have taken to express your success with orbitals. I have always enjoyed using them and have had great success.

I have found that they perform better with cleaners containing no fillers. In fact, I personally have had little success with those types of products. You need to be straight forward with surface correction and waxing. It seems to me that a "filler" is a deception. If you remove the imperfections, there is no need for a filler.

I believe in trying the "least aggressive" method first. If an orbital and a swirl /light scratch remover (2000-1500) doesn't do the trick, try a rotary and a more aggressive leveler. I've found the orbital will correct just about everything except deep scratches, acid rain etching and heavy oxidation.

There just isn't any reason not to try that combination for surface imperfections. It can be done safely by anyone and doesn't remove more paint than necessary.

Thanks again, guys</HTML>

Go 24!

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