Zaino Bros.

Philip-
Appreciate the evaluation of Diamond Plus sealant. I may try it out myself, but, as I've said before, I will refrain from issuing opinions on it. Glad to hear that Bud's product is that impressive. Mr. Hernandez and Joe have somehow posted pictures here in the past but I don't know how they did it.
Doug

Daver-Obviously, I'm sorry to learn I've offended another forum member. I still, feel, however, that businessmen should refrain from critisism of their competitors' products and it is especially worthy of challenge when those comments are unfair. I do not engage in personal attacks. Everyone's statements on this forum are subject to rebuttal. No apology this time but I do take your opinion seriously. Zaino, by the way, is not a dollar store product.
Doug

Bud-
Your latest post states, "how to tell if a car still have protection on it, and it is not by beading water. "

Your own test's first page says, "Durability in this study was evaluated in two ways... After each wash, the test areas were inspected for water beading. In general, the presence or abscence of beading was evaluated. The point at which the beading no longer existed was recorded by noting how many washings were completed before a significant change occurred. "

( glossometer testing is the other method described )

Which is it going to be ? Water beading indicates durability or water beading does not indicate durability ?
Doug

Gentlemen-
In going through all of these wax posts and updating them, I've noticed a lot of rehashing and beating of dead horses. Maybe we can give the wax subject one more look and then get on to other topics, dropping the 'whole ball of wax'.
Doug

P.S. I think it has been long enough and we should invite Chris Gaines back to the forum. How 'bout it ?

Bud-
You are cornered this time ! As I posted above, you use water beading to measure durability but when others do so, you try to discredit their testing.
You can't have it both ways. Checkmate ! Game-set-match...

Philip praised your Diamond Plus Sealant for its gloss. According to your reasoning, he can't assess the gloss because it might be simply the clearcoat causing the shine. I'm with Philip on this. I'll credit your product but not your disparaging of real world testing.

I'll wait here while you go outside and wax half your car's hood to see if there is a difference in gloss.

I'm still here.
Doug

Doug:

You are absolutely correct about the use of water beading as a measure of durability in testing.

Let me check with my chemists and the testing lab to see why the conflict of opinion.

Watch here for my reply.

buda

Bud-
Sounds fair enough.
Doug

Can't believe we're still debating how great Zaino is. Yesterday I took my '92 Civic to the dealer for an oil change and the service writers asked where I'd had it repainted. Several techs came up to touch it and all comented on how great it looked but just like this site, many wanted to compare it to other products;even waterless junk. I just asked them when was the last time you came up front to see a 14 year old Civic? Check out Edmunds.com Forum as they have seperate listings for Zaino and all the other wax/polish products and there are more than 6000 rave Zanio reports.

<<P.S. I think it has been long enough and we should invite Chris Gaines back to the forum. How 'bout it ?>>

Doug:

I always admire your sense of balance and look forward to reading your input...but inviting Chris back to the forum would serve no useful purpose. The gentleman was most disruptive and contributed very little to the growth of this industry.

Note:
Bud explained the use of water beading in his wax test on the " Water Beading..." thread.

Zaino test update : So far the Zaino has lasted 3.5 months. Stay tuned.
Doug

How do you know it is lasting 3.5 months?

Bud Abraham

Bud-
Primarily ( brace yourselves ) water beading. Shine and slickness seem to be there too.

BTW- Recently took a car with Mother's Cal Gold ( carnauba ) on it through a brushless car wash. The Cal gold was wearing thin but but still beading water. After the car wash, no beading on the hood part at all. Carnauba is less resistant than sealant to commercial car wash soaps.

So far, your own sealant has been praised by Brandy, Gina, MelissaG, Philip and others. It sounds as if Diamond Plus may be easy enough to apply to be used as an express wax. Do you recommend it for express work, Bud ?
Doug

Doug

Do not push friction type washes that use non caustic, non phosphate shampoos to wash cars in the same catagory as a touchless wash.

That is the rip-off for consumers who think touchless washes are safe.

They use hydroflouric acid and then a high alklaine chemical to neutralize the acid to get the dirt and oil film off the car.

When they take off oil film they also remove any wax on the car too.

Our DIAMOND PLUS, like any good sealant, if you know sealants, is easy to apply and easy to remove.

However, it is also a very HIGH QUALITY sealant, I would not put it in the catagory of an "Express Wax."

However, if you wanted a product that is easy to put on, take off and leaves a great shine and lengthly durability then DIAMOND PLUS is the answer at only $22.95 a gallon.

Bud Abraham

Bud: Re-read my post and you'll see I said " brushless " not "touchless". I took your advice about touchless washes years ago. In this case, I had no choice but to use the automatic wash so I did and this one uses a harsh soap.

I was not trying to call your product an express wax, simply asking if it could be used for that purpose. Express work is often done at automatic car washes so it would be nice to use a product that would survive the next automatic wash the car gets. You'll recall, Sam asked about waxes he could spray on for express work etc.
Doug

Bud-
While we're on the subject, suppose someone's car has a leak at the window and he takes it through a TOUCHLESS wash. Could he get an eyeful of HF and if so, what harm would he suffer ?
Doug

Doug

In the car wash industry, "brusless" and "touchless" carry the same meaning.

In the late 70's when cloth washing material first was introduced to the industry there was a differentiation between the plastic brushess used in automatic car washes up to that time and the new "cloth" material. So then they used the term "brushless." But for several years brushless and touchless mean the same thing.

I do not sell touchless equipment, ask the makers of touchless equipment or the operators who use the touchless equipment. You can find them on the Auto Care Forum, but I warn you, there is a registration requirement. You will want to ask that question on the "Inbay Automatic Site."

Regards

Bud Abraham

Bud- Oops ! I did not know the meanings of these terms had changed. To further the confusion, about 30 years ago a car wash opened in Gaithersburg MD called Touchless/brushless and claiming to employ both technologies. It made a mess of a fresh coat of #26 I'd just applied.
The question now is what we call a tunnel wash that uses toweling. Scratchless ? Rapid Towel ? Hmmm.
Doug

Getting back to Zaino-here's an old post that should be of interest :

Posted by: Dan (IP Logged)
Date: April 03, 2003 09:34PM


Well, you know my answer, I have only seen two products not harm trim, and da dadantaddaaa, zaino #1, klasse #2.

Gentlemen :
The following old post discusses testing and Zaino so I'm reprinting it here. Wayne is referring to Bud's test, which was then in the preparation stage :

Re: samples of waxes &amp; sealants
Posted by: wayne (IP Logged)
Date: April 10, 2003 12:10PM


Onthespot...,
Great question
I would like to think it would be a "real world" test and not a "lab test" where you can set the conditions to be advantageous for any 1 product.

It would also seem better if the bottles were NOT labeled, so as not to have biased opinions, example A, B, and C, post the test results then the person that actually sent in the product revealed what it was...

Double blind tests are always better so not to have personal opinions getting in the way of objectivly evaluating a product.

John,
Klasse AIO is a paint cleaner more than a sealant(at least in my experience), it does offer limited protection, but is meant for a "base coat" for their SG(sealant) to be applied over. I have NEVER used a product that went so far in that you use VERY VERY little and it is a LOT more durable than just AIO alone and can be aplied in 5-10 minutes, does not stain trim, etc.
As a matter of fact, when I "do" cars with Klasse AIO/SG EVERYTHING gets treated, paint, bumpers, trim, decals, windows, etc..., everything except the windshield
I think you woyld like it. I use mine by removing from the bottle and pouring in a 4oz spray/mist bottle, it makes it a lot easier to apply and if you like the look of small beads when it gets wet..., well that would do it, plus it fits in your shirt/uniform pocket so it is always "at hand"
The SG lasts longer than any product I have ever seen or used(not speaking of durability, Zaino holds the "crown" for durability), what I mean is a Quart bottle can probably "do" 100 cars or more and really adds to the look and durability of AIO.

Gentlemen ,
Zaino test update : It's been four months now and the Z-2 is still beading water. There is some road film that has stained the finish and won't wash off.
If I wanted to bring back the full shine, I'd probably have to re-apply the products. As it stands, I have long-lasting winter protection at any rate.
Below is a passage from the Zaino Web Site on water beading :
Doug

"If a manufacturer claims that their polish/wax will bead water initially and then magically change to sheeting... I say impossible!!!! Let them prove that the polish/wax film protection initially applied is still there...

Until a specific test is developed and not some fake, razzle-dazzle test, these questions will remain unanswered and I will continue to use water beading, (height, contact angle and diameter) as a major factor in gauging a polish/wax protection.

P.S. Please remember that healthy paint will bead water without any polish/wax applied. This confuses many people to believe a polish/wax is lasting longer than they think.

To test your polish/wax, you must measure the water beading of your paint (height, contact angle and diameter) without any polish/wax applied. Next, measure the water beading of your paint (height, contact angle and diameter) within 24 hours after initially applying your polish/wax. This is your starting point. This will also be the gauge for determining the water beading (longevity, duration and changes) for that specific product. As the water beads start to diminish (get wider and shallower and loses contact angle), the polish/wax and its film protection factor is going away. When the water beading is the same as before you apply your product, the polish/wax and its protection are gone. "

Gentlemen :
Here is a link to a Mike Phillips article on staining of paint and the need to use polish to remove staining. [autopia.org]
Doug

Test Update :
It has been cold and snowy here and my test car got coated with road salt. On top of that, I got sick with a bad sinus infection. Well...In the interest of getting the salt off of the car in my debilitated condition, I ran it through a tunnel/toweling car wash. I don't know if the Zaino survived the harsh soap this car wash uses, but, in any case the test conditions have changed. I'll check further. Stay tuned.
Doug

If it cant take a little strong soap, its not good enough.In the fall of the year , over a 6 week period I applied 1 coat of DG105,1 coat of Wolfgang Sealant , and 1 coat of Collinite 845. It is now 3 1/2 months latter .It has been to cold to wash my car myself. Since my car sits outside 24/7 I wash it twice a week . It may be soft cloth or Laser wash and today after the Laser wash it beaded like crazy.

Larry

Be careful taking the car thru a touchless wash. They often use hydroflouric acid followed by a high alkaline chemical to neutralize the acid and break the ionic bond that hold the dirt on the surface.

The acid can be quite harmful over time to the paint and who knows to what over exterior materials.

Further, if this process takes off dirt and the oily road film under the dirt, how will the process know the difference between oil road film and oily wax or sealant?

Regards
Bud Abraham

Bud, I do realize what you are saying, but right now Im just trying to keep the salt off. I know that come spring time Im going to have my work cut out for me, making the paint nice again.

Salt is the easiest thing to get off a car. Water will dissolve it quickly. Go to a self service wash and pressure wash the salt off and then use a foaming brush and for less than $4.00 you can have a relatively clean car.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Bud-
I'll agree that a do-it-yourself wash will remove salt but I want to caution you about the foaming brush they provide. I've seen some foaming brushes that were terribly harsh and left scratches and I've seen some that were made of fine boar's hair that shouldn't scratch.
I prefer to use my own natural truck brush and my own soap, for gentleness.
The soap that comes out of the foaming brush tends to be harsher and can strip natural waxes, if not sealants.

I examined a Toyota Camry after it was repeatedly washed in a Touchless or "Laser" wash. The upper paint felt rough, as if the wash did some damage ;
you are probably right about Touchless washes.

At the moment, I'm more concerned with pills and nasal sprays ( pro-grade products my doctor prescribed ). Maybe I need a pharmacist forum. I offered my Doc a prescription for Zaino but he declined it.
Doug

Note: Zaino's two new products are now available. Visit www.zainostore.com to learn more.
Doug

What causes scratches is not the brush it is the dirt and grit on the car. Of course, a harsh plastic brush will scratch, but a hogs hair brush will not scratch if you get the heavy dirt off with the pressure washer.

Bud Abraham

If you do use the brush at the coin car wash, make sure you rinse the brush first.You dont know who used it before you.

Good advise Larry A. We do just that in our automatic carwash. Periodically rinsing the prep brush we sometimes use on extremely dirty cars.

Regards
Bud Abraham