Zaino Bros.

Doug

His name is Mr Kim, call him "Kim" is like me calling you, "Delmont."

Bud:

You are correct the gengleman is Y.J. Kim. Kim being the surname. He however gave Doug permission to call him Kim when in a previous post he appended the signature Kim. It is not uncommon in some cultures for people to identify themselves by the last name especially if their first names are unusual.

In a formal setting it would be highly irregular and perhaps in poor taste for Dough to refer to Mr. Kim as "Kim" but since this is an automotive forum I suppose we won't be so hard on Doug or rather Mr. Delmont for a breach of etiquette.

You are absolutely correct. I was not aware that he had given permission to call him Kim.

Bud

buda

Bud-

You can call me Kim.

My first name is Young Joong.

Have a nice day.

YJ:

Prefer to call you YJ, almost same as my Korean distributor, YS Park, We call him YS, sometimes Yoon Seong.

Com-sah-ha-mi-da,

Bud Abraham

Doug-

I have looked for the guru reports on the wax test.
In the guru reports website I could see only the sold out sign.
Of course, I know the rough result of the test.
But I want the full text.

Do you have any idea of this ?

Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Kim

YJ

The Guru Report was not a scientificallly done test. It appears after reading the test it was some car enthusiasts that put the tests together.

However, when you do not have tests that are monitored by scientific measuring instruments you only subjective results.

For example, all you need to measure a product's ability to shine is a Glossometer which will give you a reading of reflective gloss off a surface before and after application. You can even measure after several washings.

This gives you a completely accuarate measurement. Anything else is totally subjective and absolutely worthless, except in the mind of the beholder.

Regards
Bud A

YJ Kim/:

You might want to log on to www.mobileworks.com another very good detailing forum like Web-Cars. There is a bit more participation the Mobileworks Forum than here. Also try www.carwash.com there is both a car wash and a detailing forum.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Bud

Thanks for your advice and information.


Regards,

YJ Kim

Kim-
I may be able to photocopy at least part of the Guru Reports Wax Test for you.
No promises but you can email me an address to mail it to. My email is sssparky1351zz@yahoo.com ( or send a private message on this forum ).
There is no crying need for you to see the whole report. I've read it and have posted most of the important findings. As you know if you've been reading the threads here, Bud and I disagree about the validity of the report. I like it. I do understand your desire to see it for yourself, of course.
I'm glad to see new people joining our discussions and hope you'll continue.
If you visit www.Meguiars.com , you will find that Barry Meguiar shares my confidence in real world testing and tells you how to conduct your own test for gloss. Jerry Bailey, of Duragloss was the first to tell me to apply different products to the left and right sides of a car hood to compare the shine. The Guru Report was not totally subjective, as Bud claims, and has been congruent with others' results since it was published. In other words, it has stood the test of time.
A little googling will help you locate several forums including the Roadfly one where one of the Guru Reports guys posts.
Doug



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2007 01:44AM by Doug Delmont.

Bud-
I notice that you demanded to know the protocols I used in my testing of the Meguiar's metal polish. Contrast that with your reaction to the Guru Reports test, where you were provided all of the details and "protocols" but still called the test 'worthless'. It looks as if you are determined to knock any real world test anyway and the demand for the protocols was just a ploy.
I read some uninformed comments on Mobileworks to the effect that layering waxes is a waste of time. As usual, these comments came from someone who had never used Zaino. Since you participate on Mobileworks, maybe you can set those folks straight. Zaino can be applied in as many coats as you want but even a single coat does a good job.
Mr. Kim informs me that he is pleased with Zaino. Unlike some over at Mobileworks, he actually used the products.
Doug

Doug :

I think the layering waxes is the differential feature of Zaino.
But it is very difficult to estimate the layering effect objectively.
So I think the coating thickness measurement could be helpful.
For example, we could compare between 1 coat and 5 coats using the equipment.

I applied Zaino on my car and took some pictures.

[www.newsm5.net]
[www.newsm5.net]


YJ Kim

YJ:

Those of us in the chemical formulation business know that chemical formulation and manufacturing is simply basic chemistry. There are no magic formulas or miracle products.

If there were you would find that most of the companies who have patents and there would be hundreds of patent suits between chemical companies.

Chemical in the automotive field, be it retail or commercial is all about marketing.

You will note that chemical companies that cater to the commercial or professional industry, that is the detail and/or collision repair industries, do not resort to crazy marketing claims about their products because they know full well that the professional users will not "buy into the BS."

They tend to make as good a product as they can and sell service to their customers.

On the other hand, the companies that cater to the retail market and especially the "car enthusiast, do-it-yourself" market are those that come up with wild claims of miracle products and useages such as "layering."

Think about the ridiculousness of such a claim. Wax basically sits on the surface of the paint. It does not absorb into the paint. So the question is, "how much wax can you put on the surface without it just moving around and creating a sticky,oily film on the car.

Yes, you can put more than a single coat of wax on a paint finish but there is really nothing unique to the product that claims to need to be layered on the finish.

These things said, we are not at all claiming the products in question are not good. Far from it, they might be excellent products but in most cases they are no better than professional products and certainly are not worth the higher price they charge.

They get the prices because they appeal to "know-nothings" that want to believe they are buying the very finest product on the market to put on their car.

Can you imagine that a man with a $650,000 restored Dussenberg paid a "car enthusiast" wax company $10,000 for a wax "specially made" for his Dussenberg? If the truth were known he probably took his standard wax product and put it in a crystal glass bottle and sent it along with an invoice for $10,000.

This is a true story written up in one of the Life Styles of the Rich and Famous magazines.

Your Zaino product might be good, but is it worth what you must have to pay? I think not.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Mr. Kim :
The car looks first rate. I can see you worked hard to get it perfect. Congratulations.
I doubt that a paint depth gage could be precise enough to measure one layer of wax accurately. There is no doubt, however, that three coats of Zaino Z-2 leave you with three times as thick a coating on the car as one coat would ; The more layers you apply, the less you can notice minor scratches. IMPORTANT: Ordinary waxes do not stick well to themselves, sometimes smear and sometimes remove earlier coats and so cannot be layered infinitely.
Layering is not the only advantage Zaino Z-2 possesses, though. It survives acid/alkali tunnel automatic car washes. It is easy to apply and wipe off. It is not powdery when wiped. It does not damage hard plastic. A tiny amount is enough to wax an entire car. According to the maker, it offers special UV protection.
It produces a show car quality shine.
Other products I've tried ( about 50 other waxes ) are good in some ways but poor in others.
Tony from Zaino told me that a professional detailer could produce good details
quickly by preparing the finish with power buffers and then hand-applying Z-2 as the final step.
I bet your neighbors are going to see your car and ask you to detail theirs !
Doug

Mr.Abraham,

I understand what you are meaning.
I agree with you.

But I'm just a consumer and DIY man.
So I don't know well about the products for the pros.

It is sure that Zaino has its powerful features in the car enthusiast and do-it-yourself market.
But I think that no single product is right for everyone.

YJ Kim

Yj

You are a wise man in your evaluation of the situation. However, if you are wise you will not, or should not, be taken advantage of by paying more for products that you should.

You have come to a professional detailing forum to your good fortune and you now know where you can purchase professional products as good as, or better than the DIY products which are more than double the price.

Why not go to the websites of DETAIL PLUS; Ardex; Car Brite; Auto International; Auto Magic; PRO; Production and find there lines of professional products that you can use and get similiar results at far less price than you now pay????

You do not have to answer, I ask as a rhetorical question.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Mr. Kim :
Bud sells products that compete with Zaino. Take that into account when he gives you his opinion.

Bud :
Have you ever tried Zaino ? I have tried some professional waxes, including Meguiar's #26 Yellow Wax and #6 Cleaner Wax, AutoMagic Wet Wax and Awesome Gloss as well as 3M Show Car Wax, 3M Cleaner Wax and Valugard OEM. None compared to Zaino. I've put my money where my mouth is. As far as I can tell, you are constantly badmouthing products you've never even tried. " Similar Results " from some of the companies you named ?-Don't make me laugh !
Mr. Kim's 8 ounces of Z-2 is so concentrated it could last him for years. It isn't as expensive as it looks.

Mr. Kim :
Who are you going to believe-Bud or your own eyes ?
Doug
" There is hardly anything that a man can't make a little worse and sell for a little less and those who consider price alone are that man's lawful prey. "



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2007 08:55PM by Doug Delmont.

Doug

You are distorting my comments in order to promote your own position.

First of all I am not at all bad-mouthing any product, what I am saying is that most of these DIY are no better or no worse than any company's professional detail products, HOWEVER, they charge far too much money.

That is not bad-mouthing the product that is simply saying that they are not worth the prices they are charging.

I am sure they are very nice products and perform very well, but from a chemical point of view they are simply not worth the prices that DIY's are willing to pay for them.

If they were superior then professional detailers who make their living detailing cars would be purchasing them.

How can I say what I do? Well let's talk about creditability. We formulate chemicals, we know what goes into waxes, sealants, polishes, etc. And, I can tell you there is nothing magic. Everyone including Zaino, Zymol, etc all have access to the same raw ingredients.

You are not a chemist, you are not a manufacturer of chemicals, you are not a distributor of chemicals, in fact you are NOT EVEN A PROFESSIONAL DETAILER who makes his living detailing cars. You are just some guy with a lot of time on his hands and nothing to do that enjoys posting on a detail forum.

Why should anyone listen to you? Your tests of various products are simply opinion because you have no instruments to determine if what you are saying can be validated.

Certainly you are entitled to your opinion and you are entitled to post your opinion, but from time to time I am going to challenge you because much of what you say is challengeable.

And YJ, if you want to believe Doug, by all means, please do. Makes no difference to me, one way or another.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Bud-
You say I distorted your comments but I didn't. Saying a product is overpriced constitutes bad-mouthing.
You say that if the high-end products were superior, professional detailers would be puchasing them. Some pros ARE using them. Gina sometimes uses Zaino as does Melissa G.
You say my tests are opinion but you are wrong. Whether water beads or a panel shines better than another are judgments based on observations and not opinions. If I say Zaino is great, then I am stating an opinion. If I say it lasted 6 months, I'm stating a fact. I explained this to you before. You cannot change the meaning of the word, "opinion".
Why do people listen to me ? Because I stick to facts and they find my contributions helpful. Also, I am not selling anything so I have no incentive to mislead anyone. I find it funny to have my expertise challenged by a man who doesn't even wax his own car.
Whether Mr. Kim believes me or not is no longer an issue. He bought Zaino. He used it on a black car. He was pleased with the products. He was happy enough to post pictures of the car and the car looked perfect in those pictures. Mr. Kim does not have to take my word for anything concerning Zaino.
I asked you if you had tried Zaino and you have not answered the question.
S.S.D.D. ( Same song, different day ).
Doug

Dear Mr.Delmont and Mr.Abraham,


There is one category that korean enthusiasts think it high class protection.
It is a kind of inorganic film including like quartz and glass ingredients.
Most of them came from Japan.
The brand names are "Quartz glass coating","Crystal guard", "Pavox"..and so on.

The price of DIY product is $70~$140.
They say it can last 6~12month.

The detailing shops require $400~$500 for wash, Pre-wax, polishig and glass coating.
The detailing pros say that it can last at least 3~5 years.

You can see the sample picture by clicking.(detailing shop' work)
[kr.img.blog.yahoo.com]


What do you think of these products?
Is it really worth paying for that?
Doesn't it have any weak point?

Regards,


YJ Kim



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2007 03:41AM by Y.J. Kim.

YJ:

American chemical companies certainly do not have a monopoly on "miracle" products and razzle-dazzle marketing. The Japanese are masters at marketing hype.

However, I will check into this product with my chemists to see if there is really anything to it or it is just marketing.

Regards
Bud Abraham

PS: Doug why don't you buy a quart and put it thru your intensive testing procedures.

YJ:

American chemical companies certainly do not have a monopoly on "miracle" products and razzle-dazzle marketing. The Japanese are masters at marketing hype.

However, I will check into this product with my chemists to see if there is really anything to it or it is just marketing.

Regards
Bud Abraham

PS: Doug why don't you buy a quart and put it thru your intensive testing procedures.

YJ:

American chemical companies certainly do not have a monopoly on "miracle" products and razzle-dazzle marketing. The Japanese are masters at marketing hype.

However, I will check into this product with my chemists to see if there is really anything to it or it is just marketing.

Regards
Bud Abraham

PS: Doug why don't you buy a quart and put it thru your intensive testing procedures.

YJ:

American chemical companies certainly do not have a monopoly on "miracle" products and razzle-dazzle marketing. The Japanese are masters at marketing hype.

However, I will check into this product with my chemists to see if there is really anything to it or it is just marketing.

Regards
Bud Abraham

PS: Doug why don't you buy a quart and put it thru your intensive testing procedures.

Mr. Kim-
You can call me "Doug". I use "Mr." in your case because it makes it clear it is your surname.
I've never heard of a sealant containing glass or quartz. It is hard to imagine how such materials could stick to the paint. The disparity between durability claims is odd too ( 1 year maximum versus 5 year maximum if professionally applied ). Durability claims can be tricky ; " up to 5 years " could refer to a car that is parked in a garage all the time, or there could be a " reactvator " application of the sealant required every so often. There is also a difference between a guarantee of 1 year and a claim of 1 year.
I'm not prejudging the products. I'm simply giving reasons for using caution before spending money to see if they work.
One question I have about sealants in general concerns road film and staining. Zaino, for example can last at least 6 months but I redo the cars sooner than that because they become stained from road oil and whatnot. You have to wonder how you could remove the stains without removing the sealant before its 3-5 years are up.
Someone on an Acura forum supplied the following link: www.q-glass.co.kr . Here is a quote off of the same forum : " Sounds like it might be similar to a product called Amazing Glaze. British Airways used it to protect the paint on Concorde. I suppose if it can stand up to temperatures of 127 degrees Celsius at 1,350 mph, it can stand up to whatever our cars endure.I have not tried it on the TL but have heard from some British friends that it's pretty good stuff, although certainly not a "one-time forever" treatment. The stuff is very expensive (£199 for the kit advertised on their site....remember that's in Sterling, so double it for US dollars). [www.amazingglaze.co.uk] " Here is an interesting link to a discussion of Crystal Guard : [www.rx8club.com]
Thanks for bringing these products to our attention. I'll see what more I can find out about them. Also see this discussion : [g35driver.com]
Doug



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2007 01:36PM by Doug Delmont.

Mr. Kim :
I was unable to bring up the www.crystalguard.com home page. The impression I get from reading various forums is that it is a good but not miracle product . It appears to last months and not years. Some users preferred Zaino and some did not.
CG may be easier to use than Zaino but someone said it does not hide swirls as well as Zaino. CG has apparently been discussed on the Autopia forums too. Here is a link to a BMW forum discussion : [www.bimmerfest.com]
Bud :
I can't afford to test everything that I want to but who knows...
Doug



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2007 02:45AM by Doug Delmont.

Bud-
Okay. You win. I'm asking Zymol for my ten thousand dollars back on that little tub of specially-designed wax. My Honda Accord will have to make do with Zaino. (LOL)
Speaking purely as one of the " know-nothings " you disparaged to our correspondent, I'd like to ask if, as you say, " Everyone including Zaino, Zymol, etc all have access to the same raw ingredients ", and therefore no product can be much better than another, is Windex as good as Glass Plus, Mobil One synthetic oil no better than conventional oil etc. ? In the case of Mobil One as in the case of Zaino, everyone had access to the same chemicals but someone decided to select the best chemicals and use them in sufficient quantity to produce a great product. That 's why it cost's more. Professional waxes are often built to a price, to meet the needs of pro detailers ( machine application / low price / fast application / simple to use / fewest steps in the process ). Notice I didn't mention durability...
Doug

Doug:

Chemical companies do not select the best chemicals, they select the best "ingredients" to make the best chemicals.

The fact that you have to ask the question you do shows that you have no real knowledge of the chemistry involved in making chemicals. Without that knowledge it is fruitless to try and discuss with you how chemicals are made.

If you like Zaino and think it is a great product, then by all means, use it. And, tell others to use it. No problem.

However, when you make uninformed statements you can expect me to constantly challenge you.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Bud-
" Without chemicals, products themselves would be impossible " ( with apologies to Monsanto ). You've created a semantic problem that only exists in your own mind ; the ingredients are themselves chemicals, so my terminology was correct.

If I make "uninformed statements", they cannot compare with your saying Zaino is " nothing special " and " not worth what they charge for it "-especially since you've never even tried Zaino. That's uninformed !
I never claimed to know how chemicals are made anyway.

Your "challenges" are more like badgering. I question your motives.

I think the forum will benefit from more information and fewer repetitious debates.
Doug

In the chemical manufacturing business, which we are in and you are not, we refer to what we make as "chemicals." That which we use to make the chemical product are called "ingredients." Just for your information.

Ah, but I am familiar with Zaino. It was put thru the same tests as 24 other products and tested for reflective shine after application and after 12 simulated washings using a BKY-Gardnier Glossometer. Same as used by the auto manufacturers to measure reflective shine and by the paint companies.

It was also tested for corrsion resistence using salt water as the corrosive element.

Please do not question my creditability when you have none. You are not a detailer, you are not a manufacturer how can you speak with any authority when you are not even involved in the business?