Trust those that have been there, Why ?

For anyone who is working to be a true professional and do what is right, not as stated earlier, "that's the way I have done it and that's all I need to know" sort, you did the right thing.
Don't let all the technical get in your way.
Learn to at least try the excellent advice being provided by long, long time experts in the field such at Gina and Bud, keep working to improve your techniques, and each job you do, will get easier and you will experience better and better results.
In short, just do the "right thing", not what just anyone says for you to do.
Trust those who have been there, and in this case, these two have "been there".
Ketcj <br.

You should trust people who tell you that swirl marks are a fact of life, and just
live with it.There is just nothing you can do about it.A club of three who suggest
paint correction( a technique that was designed for cars that were made before clear coat paint jobs) as the only solution(which it is not).

I was the one who mentioned acrylic paint sealants to this forum, and to my knowledge, none of the so called professionals here had a clue what they are.
I mention a simple way to prevent swirl marks here,and the professionals
say I am wrong, and do not listen to me because I have not been posting here that long.<br>

I admit I have not formulated products like Bud and Ketch, and not trained 3,000
people how to wear clear coats down with paint correction for the sake of removing
swirl marks caused by using wax. Here is a statement from Bud on wax:
How can someone say a wax will damage a clear coat?
All a wax has in it are waxes, either natural or synthetic, oils, solvent, colorant. What prey tel, is there that will damage a clear coat?

Anyone know?

Hey Ketch, this is the guy you suggest as a professional? I have answered that
question at least 10 times here, but for some reason it is not what the experts want to hear, so of course I am a quack.

For the newbies here, I want to offer advice that is directed for you. My advice
comes from many years of actual experience doing detail work as a business.It will be easy to understand, and will not require spending money on products and
equipment you do not need. For example: A good wet/vac will cost you around a
$100, but a carpet extractor will run into the the thousands for a good one.<br>

IMO, the wet/vac is a better investment. You can use it to vac your car, and save money that you would spend for a pay vac site. Plus, it is handy for things around the house.<br>


Before I started posting here. This site was about as informative as the nightly
news. I really have not seen anything posted from the experts here,except,I am wrong and listen to Bud and Gina because they belong to the IDA.<br>

You have the right to post your opinion, but I do not post comments like the one above.If I make comments on something, I know what I am talking about, not this
crap.<br>



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2010 06:15PM by billd55.

Quote
billd55
For anyone who is working to be a true professional and do what is right, not as stated earlier, "that's the way I have done it and that's all I need to know" sort, you did the right thing.
Don't let all the technical get in your way.
Learn to at least try the excellent advice being provided by long, long time experts in the field such at Gina and Bud, keep working to improve your techniques, and each job you do, will get easier and you will experience better and better results.
In short, just do the "right thing", not what just anyone says for you to do.
Trust those who have been there, and in this case, these two have "been there".
Ketcj <br.

You should trust people who tell you that swirl marks are a fact of life, and just
live with it.There is just nothing you can do about it.A club of three who suggest
paint correction( a technique that was designed for cars that were made before clear coat paint jobs) as the only solution(which it is not).

I was the one who mentioned acrylic paint sealants to this forum, and to my knowledge, none of the so called professionals here had a clue what they are.
I mention a simple way to prevent swirl marks here,and the professionals
say I am wrong, and do not listen to me because I have not been posting here that long.<br>

I admit I have not formulated products like Bud and Ketch, and not trained 3,000
people how to wear clear coats down with paint correction for the sake of removing
swirl marks caused by using wax. Here is a statement from Bud on wax:
How can someone say a wax will damage a clear coat?
All a wax has in it are waxes, either natural or synthetic, oils, solvent, colorant. What prey tel, is there that will damage a clear coat?

Anyone know?


Hey Ketch, this is the guy you suggest as a professional? I have answered that
question at least 10 times here, but for some reason it is not what the experts want to hear, so of course I am a quack.

For the newbies here, I want to offer advice that is directed for you. My advice
comes from many years of actual experience doing detail work as a business.It will be easy to understand, and will not require spending money on products and
equipment you do not need. For example: A good wet/vac will cost you around a
$100, but a carpet extractor will run into the the thousands for a good one.<br>

IMO, the wet/vac is a better investment. You can use it to vac your car, and save money that you would spend for a pay vac site. Plus, it is handy for things around the house.<br>


Before I started posting here. This site was about as informative as the nightly
news. I really have not seen anything posted from the experts here,except,I am wrong and listen to Bud and Gina because they belong to the IDA.<br>

You have the right to post your opinion, but I do not post comments like the one above.If I make comments on something, I know what I am talking about, not this
crap.<br>

you make some good points there.
Paint correction is one of many ways to fix oxidation and defects
Swirl marks are going to happen but the time is drawing near to where they will be extremely hard to get once a new coating that is a paint, perfected and released to market

swirls are a result of poor washing techniques and products, car being out in the weather, giving your car a quick detailing when its dirty, buffing with dirty pads, using old school compounds with a machine and poor polishing techniques with a rotary.

The future of paint care is in long term filling and in extremely scratch resistant protective coatings which are coming out slowly
the long term filling has been available since the mid 90's but has improved alot and newer products released that are much better.
of course removing defects by removing paint gives the best result as they wont come back but correction has its limits in terms of how many times it can be performed and the permanent reduction in depth perception and the clarity

You do not always need to use abrasives to repair oxidation. there is one other way which involves certain ingredients that flushes the paint sub surface clean and refreshes the paint and another one that through its decontamination system, eliminates the causes of oxidation and all contamination

acrylic pre cleaners and sealants have been around since I have been on this earth, perhaps even longer. the toughseal one is the best I've seen for reducing orange peel slightly, penetrating the paint and removing all sorts of contaminants

many pro's are afraid of certain things because they think that their business will suffer.

I will never stick with the same way of detailing cars because changes in types of exterior trim, new technology paints and many other factors will affect how they are to be treated.
My belief is that if you stand still, you will be left behind. move with the times, keep learning and be humble or prepare to be humbled by someone else someday
to be honest, extractors are the better machinery and many have twin or triple motor vacuums built in. far better than a wet vac and so are steamers

Svr73

I could not have said it better myself on correction and wax.<br>

I will agree that extractors are better machinery because they cost more.
Although, not everyone here wants to be a professional detailer,nor wants
to drop thousands on a extractor.<br>

When I started in the business, there were no extractors on the market. We
used wet vacs to clean them, and my IMO they do a good job.I have used several extraction machines, and they are work well for light soil jobs. Although,
not on really dirty carpets and seats.<br>


I wanted to give a simple and cost effective solution to the person's smell
problem in the truck.Then I am attacked as some kind of idiot for not suggesting
a carpet extractor not being used. <br>

I will never stick with the same way of detailing cars because changes in types of exterior trim, new technology paints and many other factors will affect how they are to be treated.

My belief is that if you stand still, you will be left behind. move with the times, keep learning and be humble or prepare to be humbled by someone else someday
to be honest, extractors are the better machinery and many have twin or triple motor vacuums built in. far better than a wet vac and so are steamers

That should be the motto of all professional detailers.. I will be using the quote from now on

Gina as you say things change, onlyconstant in life. Paints, fabrics, from, glass all change in CARS so must chemicals, equipment, techniques.

Far too many resist change but there is no choice.

Many detailers take the position: "if I can't afford it, I don't need it!"

spot on there bud. I'd love to know how to eliminate correction or make it far easier and quicker. maybe a move to titanium and zirconium oxide abrasives in a single polish system like S1 ultra

svr73
I really think you are too concerned with polishing and abrasives, and not
protection. You mention :I'd love to know how to eliminate correction or make it far easier and quicker. Well, here is my answer. I am not exactly sure what you are using as your protection step, but it sounds like an polish. IMO polishes remove flaws and swirls, but do not seal or protect the micro pores of the clear coat.<br>

PPS technology does this. Here is an article on it:[ppstechnology.com]. Most cars today use acrylic urethane's for the clear coat
because of cost. They are not very durable, and protection is very important.<br>.

That is why AT-5 or toughseal should be used because of the acrylic to acrylic
bond.When these products are used there is no need for harsh cleaners, polishes,
or abrasives more than one time.My experience with hundreds of vehicles requires a wash, clay bar, and another application.IMO if you use correction on a vehicle, and do it again within a year. Your protection product is not doing it's job.<br>


I like a deep shine that you could shave with, but I want to protect my paint
more.IMO if you prevent damage then you do not need correction to fix it.
Here is what I consider protection and shine:[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/30/2010 12:41PM by billd55.

Quote
billd55
svr73
I really think you are too concerned with polishing and abrasives, and not
protection. You mention :I'd love to know how to eliminate correction or make it far easier and quicker. Well, here is my answer. I am not exactly sure what you are using as your protection step, but it sounds like an polish. IMO polishes remove flaws and swirls, but do not seal or protect the micro pores of the clear coat.<br>

PPS technology does this. Here is an article on it:[ppstechnology.com]. Most cars today use acrylic urethane's for the clear coat
because of cost. They are not very durable, and protection is very important.<br>.

That is why AT-5 or toughseal should be used because of the acrylic to acrylic
bond.When these products are used there is no need for harsh cleaners, polishes,
or abrasives more than one time.My experience with hundreds of vehicles requires a wash, clay bar, and another application.IMO if you use correction on a vehicle, and do it again within a year. Your protection product is not doing it's job.<br>


I like a deep shine that you could shave with, but I want to protect my paint
more.IMO if you prevent damage then you do not need correction to fix it.
Here is what I consider protection and shine:[www.youtube.com]

hey bill. mate I love protection and use glare, aquartz, driven and soon a new polyurethane super scratch resistant coating
glare becomes part of the paint, sealing in the pores. just did some more work today on a rock hard Audi wagon 2001 model. flushed the paint pores clean and restored colour shade, removed oxidation and left a thicker, glassy protective finish on the car without using any abrasive cut and polishes of any type

svr73
I believe this is the future of detailing success. True protection, not
beading and shine.Hopefully, detailers will wake up and stop using waxes and
realize that paints have changed.The products used 30 years ago do not work
today.Swirl marks are preventable, and so is paint correction in many cases.<br>

Whether you use AT-5, toughseal, or glare products. Protection IMO is the
goal. If you want steady business, sell your customers on this idea. Convince
them that protection now will prevent damage in the future, and they will spend the money.<br>

The car dealerships are the ones hiring these hack detailers because of cost.
IMO it is presenting a bad image of what a detailer is.In many cases, most
people think they are glorified car washers who slap wax on your car.<br>.

I am not really surprised why everyone wants to start a detail business. How
hard can it be? Charge big money for a couple of hours of work. Yea right,
that may work for a while, but that will not last long when your phone stops
ringing. <br>

It is like you said :
My belief is that if you stand still, you will be left behind. move with the times,

< Charge big money for a couple of hours of work. Yea right,
that may work for a while, but that will not last long when your phone stops
ringing.>

I am beginning to think you have no business sense... Which person in their right mind would have a problem making money to repair and fix paint problems?

Paints have changed over the years, for the most part protection products have evolved with those changes. The equiptment that applies these products is better. So tell me, when you perform a detail for a car dealer, do you convince them to spend the money on long term protection for their cars? As we all know, when a used car comes into a dealership it will most likely need correction of some sort. Those of us that do alot of cars for dealerships perform these services and must do so at a very competitive price. Just because you have a product that works well for you, does not mean it works well for me. I do like sealers over wax, however, my clients prefer wax as it gives them the kind of deep shine and depth that helps sell a car before it gets dust on it and its cheap. So maybe instead of calling those of us that do the heavy lifting in the industry 'hacks' perhaps you should buy a carpet extractor and get with the program!

Gina it is not that he has no business sense, "he really has no sense." Most of what Buffer Bill says in really nonsense, you and I know that. It is the marketing hype of the companies sellling the paint sealant protection plans to dealers.

What we and all professional detailers know is that you can do a number of different things to paint:

a. Wax or seal only (protection)
b. Polish and protect
c. One step- correct, polish and protect
d. Correct, polish/swirl remove and protect

There is no other way around it those are the normal steps to take when correcting paint depending on the paint finish problem.

To do this you have buffers, orbitals, dual action tools, various cutting and polishing pads and compounds, polishes, swirl removers, waxes and sealants.

A detailer must be like a doctor to understand the vehicle and it's materials and then be able to diagnose the problem and then have all the knowledge and tools to correct the problem.

Would you not agree?

Bud Abraham

Bill do you have a company name, business license,insurance or even a real email address for your customers to get ahold of you?
BTW spending thousands on a top quality heated extractor makes you thousands in no time, You have to spend money to make money..

more can be done than just that bud
I wont say what they are though cause you'd never believe me anyhow

SVR

By all means please do indicate what more there is to paint finishing than what I suggested above?

Certainly there is washing and claying, but that is about prepping and cleaning the finish not correcting, swirl-removing/polishing and protecting.

You might want to mention wet or dry sanding, and while I can agree that "some" detailers do this, the majority do not.

Our philosophy has always been that wet/dry sanding is a professional body and paint tech's responsibility because if they make a mistake they can correct it.

If a detailer attempts to wet/dry sand and makes a mistake it can be a several thousand dollar mistake.

There are plenty of cars out there that only need buffing, polishing or protecting, why undertake more complicated work, for fewer customers?

You are not wrong if you hold a different opinion and I am not correct in my opinion it has simply to do with operational philosophy.

Regards
Bud abraham

I use to work for a high line restoration shop, wet sanding and componding was not done by the detailer. It was done by the paint dept.

Gina, Bud, Pro mobile

Believe what you want about me. I answer your questions, but you have no desire
to listen.more can be done than just that bud
I wont say what they are though cause you'd never believe me anyhow.svr73 makes
my very point.,<br>

A company name, business insurance, and a real email address makes someone a professional detailer.Not IMO.I live in a town that has more detailers than most big cities.They come and they go.They all use wax, and love correction.<br>

You judge me for using a wet vac instead of a carpet extractor as outdated, but then you say I am wrong to suggest using a far superior product(acrylic sealant)
over something that has been around since the 40's.You have no knowledge of this product at all, but you have no problem expressing your opinion about it.<br>

When I express my opinion on a question, you three need to jump in and make sure to attack my experience and advice.You are more than free to make your comments,
but I am really sick of the stupid questions you ask over and over again.It is very clear to me that you have your opinion,but listen to what I say Gina.
I am beginning to think you have no business sense... Which person in their right mind would have a problem making money to repair and fix paint problems?<br>

I never said that these people do not have right to correct paint problems,but
it is very clear that correction is far overused. I stated that IMO that wax causes swirl marks. Wax does not cause orange peel, fish eyes, or paint related
problems.If you three want to believe that wax protects your paint from the sun
and other things. You are not the only one, but I do not.<br.

Quote"A company name, business insurance, and a real email address makes someone a professional detailer.Not IMO.:
I guess you dont do many world wide multibillion dollar companies like i do.One of the first companies i did back before 911 was richie bro auctioners they would not even dicuss payment until i showed them proper insurance.Of course i guess there,s gotta be guys with wet vacs, no insurance,no license and no contact info that get that 49.99 for an interior compared to my 150 to 250 plus for interiors.Of course thats just my opinion as you say

No,I just get asked to help apply At-5 on two 737-800's as a test program for a major airline in Houston Tx.It really does not impress me that someone is willing to pay you that kind of money to clean nice clean exotics interiors.So what? By the way,who said I charge $49.99. <br>

So what you are saying is that a license, and insurance makes you a professional
detailer.Pro mobile, how many boats have you done? I have done at least 300 hundred by my self. My biggest was 70 feet.<br>

Is this your web site?



After 14 successful years... we have closed our doors...


PRO-MOBILE DETAILS

For 14 years we provided the most dependable, reliable, onsite automobile cleaning & detailing service in the Atlanta area.
Concerned about our worsening water supply, we worked to provide alternative way to clean vehicles without water. We are proud to have provided a temporary solution to this problem and that we did what we could to help.

The economic crisis that is affecting everyone, drove us out of business.

Maybe no one wanted to pay your high prices any more? That's just my opinion of course.

Bill your stupidity continues,,,,,, look at my name before you ramble on ,,,
PRO MOBILE DETAILS not PRO-MOBILE DETAILS DUH.......
I got my name back in 96,Unlike 99% of others i don,t advertise, cold call, hand out biz cards,nothing and my ceos, forbes 500 and even the little old ladies still use my service ITS CALLED WORD OF MOUTH!!!
BTW i don,t do many exotics(about a dozen) i,m a classics man i,m doing 7 more now as my one client who has a classic for every day of the month and then some just bought 7 more id show you some pics but wait no real email lol

Doug

Since you are far smarter then me. Why not write some posts explaining to everyone
here what I have said about wax that is wrong. You are great at throwing insults
out, but short on facts.<br>

I guess you dont do many world wide multibillion dollar companies like i do.


,Unlike 99% of others i don,t advertise, cold call, hand out biz cards,nothing and my ceos, forbes 500 and even the little old ladies still use my service ITS CALLED WORD OF MOUTH!!!
BTW i don,t do many exotics(about a dozen) i,m a classics man i,m doing 7 more now as my one client who has a classic for every day of the month and then some just bought 7 more id show you some pics but wait no real email lol

Bill do you have a company name, business license,insurance or even a real email address for your customers to get ahold of you? I ask you the same question?


Ritchie Bros. Auctioneers is an industrial auctioneer. The company has 110 locations in 25 countries and 39 auction sites worldwide. The company sells through unreserved public auctions a broad range of used and unused industrial assets, including equipment, trucks and other assets utilized in the construction, transportation, agricultural, material handling, mining, forestry, petroleum, and marine industries. So what did you do for this company? I am confused. Would you like to clarify. I am not the one bragging here at what I charge.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2010 02:39PM by billd55.

Bill theres a little box at the right hand side called a search engine, it shows all the posts from previous posts Maybe you should try that to seek the many questions you have asked Obviously you get confused easy as you say...i mean you tried to bash me when i responed to buds post as i said it was going in one ear and out the other as you asked me if was that guy ...too bad you were bashing a guy from atlanta and i,m in canada wow good research info you do ...
As for your even dumber question about richie bros I detailed everything from heavy equipment machinery interiors, boats, trucks of all kinds feightliners, boom trucks and personal vehicles like mike richies who sold for thousands more in the sale than he thought it would
hope this helps .... BTW the 150 to 250 is for todays prices (which are average where i come from for quality work no bragging bill...) for nasty interiors others can,t do properly and that isn,t exotics like you muttered..i made alot more than 250 on every int/ext vehicle at RB Wake up bill.....

Doug
Your posts are really hard to understand.You ramble alot.You are the one bragging
not me. I just gave my advice to a novice on how to clean an interior without
a carpet extractor.Not everyone here wants to buy a $2,000 extraction machine. <br>

I live in south florida, and not Canada. We have two things you do not have.
Heat and Humidity. Your World's Best Wax would be gone in one day down here.
You do not have to deal with salt water build up on a boat, and how to remove it.<br>

Where I live, there are tons of wanta be detailers out there who ruin the business.
They do crap work for cheap prices. It is very hard to make money and charge a fair
price. People get a bad view of detailing because of them.Sorry, but this gets
me upset.

Quote from bill...Your posts are really hard to understand

Sorry bill you were the one who wanted an in depth decription of what i done since you had time to research my clients. I should have just said i detailed vehicles sorry to confuse you again. YOu can,t even admit you were trying to bash the wrong guy lol

Quote from bill... Not everyone here wants to buy a $2,000 extraction machine. <br>
BIll a good one cost 3,5000

Quote from bill... I live in south florida, and not Canada. We have two things you do not have.
Heat and Humidity. Your World's Best Wax would be gone in one day down here.
You do not have to deal with salt water build up on a boat, and how to remove it.<br>

Wrong again bill and btw i worked 6 months of the year in southern florida back in the eighties and still go to ocala and hallendale just outside of miami and its not that bad .Maybe you should do some more of that research you do so well and you will find out we have heat and humidity as we had 20 out of 30 days above 30c, 43 c with humidity opps better use farenheit so bill doesn,t get confused 100f most 106f with record humidity in august ands was the hottest summer on record yesterday was 38 c with the humidity 100f.

Quote from bill..
Where I live, there are tons of wanta be detailers out there who ruin the business.
They do crap work for cheap prices. It is very hard to make money and charge a fair
price. People get a bad view of detailing because of them.Sorry, but this gets
me upset

Bill hacks makes pros like me,gina and others good money why be mad... embrace the opportunity to capitalize .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2010 12:06PM by Pro Mobile Details.

Quote
buda
SVR

By all means please do indicate what more there is to paint finishing than what I suggested above?

Certainly there is washing and claying, but that is about prepping and cleaning the finish not correcting, swirl-removing/polishing and protecting.

You might want to mention wet or dry sanding, and while I can agree that "some" detailers do this, the majority do not.

Our philosophy has always been that wet/dry sanding is a professional body and paint tech's responsibility because if they make a mistake they can correct it.

If a detailer attempts to wet/dry sand and makes a mistake it can be a several thousand dollar mistake.

There are plenty of cars out there that only need buffing, polishing or protecting, why undertake more complicated work, for fewer customers?

You are not wrong if you hold a different opinion and I am not correct in my opinion it has simply to do with operational philosophy.

Regards
Bud abraham

decontamination (before claying or instead of)
chemical cleaning
softening to make correction easier and faster
hardening via certain products
thickening synthetically using our newly developed pour on glass system and another brand of products that has to be buffed in at low rpm
orange peel flattened on soft to medium hard paint without sanding

Thanks for the reply, appreciate the information.

Could you please explain exactly how these steps are accomplished? I am not familiar with what they are the way you presented them.

Thank you

bud abraham

Doug
What is your point? I am not trying to bash anyone.You continue to brag how much money you make on details, and know what the cost of an extraction machine is. You are the one that brought up that company, and I looked it up to see what they sold. They auction industrial equipment, and I wondered what that had to do with detailing.<br>

Precipitation (inches)
Monthly averages & records
°F | °C
Month Average low Average high Average precip Record low Record high
January 18° 31° 2.37 in -24° (1981) 60° (1950)
February 19° 31° 2.06 in -23° (1886) 55° (1930)
March 26° 39° 2.39 in -16° (1868) 80° (1946)
April 36° 50° 2.8 in 3° (1972) 86° (1990)
May 46° 62° 3 in 23° (1966) 93° (1988)
June 55° 72° 2.54 in 33° (1964) 99° (1919)
July 60° 77° 2.46 in 39° (1968) 105° (1936)
August 60° 76° 2.81 in 36° (1965) 101° (1948)
September 53° 68° 2.83 in 25° (1965) 96° (1931)
October 42° 56° 2.81 in 19° (1975) 87° (2007)
November 33° 45° 2.95 in -5° (1875) 75° (1950)
December 24° 35° 2.72 in -22° (1933) 63° (1998)

Doug, I do my research and this sure does not back up what you say the temps
are in Toronto. The average high temp in August is 76 degrees.Now, lets look
at Naples Fl.<br>

Naples Weather and Climate Chart - Naples, Florida (FL), USA

The following are the normal daily temperature ranges for Naples:


Maximum

Minimum

Naples, FL weather in January

23°C / 73°F

11°C / 52°F

Naples, FL weather in February

24°C / 75°F

12°C / 54°F

Naples, FL weather in March

27°C / 81°F

15°C / 59°F

Naples, FL weather in April

29°C / 84°F

17°C / 63°F

Naples, FL weather in May

31°C / 88°F

20°C / 68°F

Naples, FL weather in June

32°C / 90°F

23°C / 73°F

Naples, FL weather in July

33°C / 91°F

24°C / 75°F

Naples, FL weather in August

33°C / 91°F

24°C / 75°F

Naples, FL weather in September

32°C / 90°F

23°C / 73°F

Naples, FL weather in October

30°C / 86°F

20°C / 68°F

Naples, FL weather in November

27°C / 81°F

16°C / 61°F

Naples, FL weather in December

24°C / 75°F

13°C / 55°F

Today the high temp is 90 degrees is Naples Fl., and 64 degrees in Toronto.<br>

Doug's quote

Wrong again bill and btw i worked 6 months of the year in southern florida back in the eighties and still go to ocala and hallendale just outside of miami and its not that bad

It must not have been in the summer. Your fancy wax may work where you live,but
down here it would not last a week.<br>

Bill hacks makes pros like me,gina and others good money why be mad... embrace the opportunity to capitalize .<br>

I totally disagree. Hacks go out of business. You may get away with it in a big city, but in a small town like Naples, your toast.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2010 06:57PM by billd55.