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Question about swirl marks on new cars
Posted by Bill Doyle
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Question about swirl marks on new cars June 24, 2003 08:11PM |
<HTML>Hi,
I am wondering if high speed polishers used by dealers cause the swirl marks I see on new cars.
I have noticed nearly all new or newer cars (especially dark colored ones) have round swirl marks on the hood and trunk.
When I got my new black car a month and a half ago, I was paranoid my finish would have these marks so I insisted the dealer do not prep the car. They complied and I prepped the car myself doing everything by hand. Of course, as a reult, there were absoulely no swirl marks on my finish. ( Plan to use a PC next time it needs detailing)
My suspicions are that the detailers at the car dealers use high speed rotary polishers at too high a speed and/or with dirty or incorrect pads thus causing the swirls. My suspicions were further fueled when Iwent to my dealer to have my plates put on and a detailer helped me install them. I asked what equipment he uses and he said the detailers use rotary polishers.
This doesn't mean the detailers are doing their jobs incorrectly according to the dealer. Perhaps they follow a protocol set by the dealer but the dealer is unaware of the fact that its method results in swirl marks.
I also recall being in the garage area of another dealer several years ago and saw a Cyclo polisher laying around on a countertop. I figured that would be fine for used cars, but wouldn't it be too much for a brand new car?
I understand a PC is very safe for detailing but I'm surprised I never saw or heard about dealers using them. It seems all the dealers use rotaries ( Dewalt, Makita). I personally see no need to own a rotary polisher because my car is new and my other cars are newer with paint in excellent shape.
Is using a rotary polisher on a new car bound to make swirl marks? Or is using one under the proper speed ( proper training as well) and with the correct pads safe?
TIA,
Bill</HTML>
I am wondering if high speed polishers used by dealers cause the swirl marks I see on new cars.
I have noticed nearly all new or newer cars (especially dark colored ones) have round swirl marks on the hood and trunk.
When I got my new black car a month and a half ago, I was paranoid my finish would have these marks so I insisted the dealer do not prep the car. They complied and I prepped the car myself doing everything by hand. Of course, as a reult, there were absoulely no swirl marks on my finish. ( Plan to use a PC next time it needs detailing)
My suspicions are that the detailers at the car dealers use high speed rotary polishers at too high a speed and/or with dirty or incorrect pads thus causing the swirls. My suspicions were further fueled when Iwent to my dealer to have my plates put on and a detailer helped me install them. I asked what equipment he uses and he said the detailers use rotary polishers.
This doesn't mean the detailers are doing their jobs incorrectly according to the dealer. Perhaps they follow a protocol set by the dealer but the dealer is unaware of the fact that its method results in swirl marks.
I also recall being in the garage area of another dealer several years ago and saw a Cyclo polisher laying around on a countertop. I figured that would be fine for used cars, but wouldn't it be too much for a brand new car?
I understand a PC is very safe for detailing but I'm surprised I never saw or heard about dealers using them. It seems all the dealers use rotaries ( Dewalt, Makita). I personally see no need to own a rotary polisher because my car is new and my other cars are newer with paint in excellent shape.
Is using a rotary polisher on a new car bound to make swirl marks? Or is using one under the proper speed ( proper training as well) and with the correct pads safe?
TIA,
Bill</HTML>
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Re: Question about swirl marks on new cars June 25, 2003 02:55AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 866 |
<HTML>Rotory buffers make swirl marks in the hands of the unknowing or uncaring. Have you seen detailers buffing new cars? I think that would be a waste of time. I breakout my rotory to do some sort of correction to the paint.</HTML>
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Plays in the rain --- www.SuperiorShineDetailing.com
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Plays in the rain --- www.SuperiorShineDetailing.com
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Re: Question about swirl marks on new cars June 25, 2003 03:15AM |
<HTML>Joe,
Thanks very much for your reply. I have not actually seen the detailers buffing new cars with a rotary but I gulped when the detailer I spoke to said they use them. The dealer I got my car from only has a handful of used cars so this leads me to believe they use them on the new cars.
I don't expect any car dealer to have detailers hand prep the cars, that would be too inefficient . I just shutter when I have seen a rotary in a dealer's garage and when I'm told my dealer use rotaries.
I'm a diehard nut when it comes to detailing my cars and I'm so happy I avoided the swirls on my new car by prepping it myself. I'm not against the use of rotaries entirely. I think a rotary can be a great tool but for my needs, I'll only consider one to repair some unforeseen damage I can't fix with my current equipment.
--Bill</HTML>
Thanks very much for your reply. I have not actually seen the detailers buffing new cars with a rotary but I gulped when the detailer I spoke to said they use them. The dealer I got my car from only has a handful of used cars so this leads me to believe they use them on the new cars.
I don't expect any car dealer to have detailers hand prep the cars, that would be too inefficient . I just shutter when I have seen a rotary in a dealer's garage and when I'm told my dealer use rotaries.
I'm a diehard nut when it comes to detailing my cars and I'm so happy I avoided the swirls on my new car by prepping it myself. I'm not against the use of rotaries entirely. I think a rotary can be a great tool but for my needs, I'll only consider one to repair some unforeseen damage I can't fix with my current equipment.
--Bill</HTML>
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Re: Question about swirl marks on new cars June 25, 2003 04:42AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Detailers in most dealerships are not very well trained. They are paid by the car and do their work very fast.
Everyone in the detail business must have a rotary buffer as there are many times when it is required to remove slight imperfections to more severe scratches or spotting, etc.
The problem with detailers is that they "do what they have always done." What is that? Buff a car with a buffing pad whether it needs it or not.
YOu will always find swirls in dealership cars if they have not covered them up by buffing wax on the car. After a few washes the wax is gone and the swirls are revealed in all their glory.
It is hard to find a compentently trained detailer anywhere in the country. Because there is no real training program and most detailers have learned by trial and error.
On this forum you will find some of the more informed and knowledgeable detailers in the country because they are trying to get proper information. If one is in your city I would not hesitate to use them.
It is sad, but I cannot recommend any detailer in the City of Portland Oregon to anyone because I know none that are really good. I tried three different supposed professional detailers on my car and my wife's car. Swirls in the paint after a few washes and the carpets wicked up all the dirt they left in when the carpets dried.
Sad state of affairs in this industry.
Regards
Bud A</HTML>
buda
Everyone in the detail business must have a rotary buffer as there are many times when it is required to remove slight imperfections to more severe scratches or spotting, etc.
The problem with detailers is that they "do what they have always done." What is that? Buff a car with a buffing pad whether it needs it or not.
YOu will always find swirls in dealership cars if they have not covered them up by buffing wax on the car. After a few washes the wax is gone and the swirls are revealed in all their glory.
It is hard to find a compentently trained detailer anywhere in the country. Because there is no real training program and most detailers have learned by trial and error.
On this forum you will find some of the more informed and knowledgeable detailers in the country because they are trying to get proper information. If one is in your city I would not hesitate to use them.
It is sad, but I cannot recommend any detailer in the City of Portland Oregon to anyone because I know none that are really good. I tried three different supposed professional detailers on my car and my wife's car. Swirls in the paint after a few washes and the carpets wicked up all the dirt they left in when the carpets dried.
Sad state of affairs in this industry.
Regards
Bud A</HTML>
buda
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Re: Question about swirl marks on new cars June 25, 2003 01:10PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 21 |
<HTML>I've actually watched a dealer lot attendant wash cars and couldn't believe what he was doing to them. He first used a high pressure water wand to wet the car down and then used a brush that looked like something you'd spread tar on the drive to apply the soap and then a quick rinse with the pressure wand again.
Its no wonder new cars have swirls in them after this treatment.</HTML>
Its no wonder new cars have swirls in them after this treatment.</HTML>
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Re: Question about swirl marks on new cars June 25, 2003 02:39PM |
<HTML>Gentlemen,
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on this issue. I'm glad "it's not just me" who is suspicious of the dealer detailers as the root of the swirl marks. I too witnessed a detailer using a high pressure washer and a large broom-like brush washing a car when I drove past an auto body shop. I had chills!
I suppose one who is a detailing enthusiast may have to resort to prepping his new car himself as I did. It wouldn't surprise me if all of you have done this with your cars and I bet you are very proud your cars are swirl-mark free.
I'm going to continue to strive for swirl free finishes and I thank you for such an excellent resource here on this website!
Happy Detailing,
Bill</HTML>
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on this issue. I'm glad "it's not just me" who is suspicious of the dealer detailers as the root of the swirl marks. I too witnessed a detailer using a high pressure washer and a large broom-like brush washing a car when I drove past an auto body shop. I had chills!
I suppose one who is a detailing enthusiast may have to resort to prepping his new car himself as I did. It wouldn't surprise me if all of you have done this with your cars and I bet you are very proud your cars are swirl-mark free.
I'm going to continue to strive for swirl free finishes and I thank you for such an excellent resource here on this website!
Happy Detailing,
Bill</HTML>
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Re: Question about swirl marks on new cars June 25, 2003 02:45PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>DEALERSHIP DETAILER STORIES
Was at a Cadillac dealership in Portland one sunny day and noticed that every used car on the lot had buffer swirls.
Noting this to the used car manager he smiled and said,
"You know detailers." Then he said in all honesty, "actually our head detailer said, not to worry that as soon as the residual glaze washed off the car, the swirls would be gone."
Was not sure who was dumber, the detailer or the sales manager. Probably the sales manager who believed that story.
As they say, however, "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
I find that many private detailers do not have much more knowledge than dealership detailers. They criticize these people and consider themselves better, maybe because they operate their own business, but while they have a passion for the detailing business they are extremely deficient in their knowlegde.
On that line I might put in a plug for the series of "Detailing Seminars" that are sponsored by Professional Carwashing & Detailing that I will conduct this next Fall in Boston; New York; Atlanta; Dallas and Seattle.
If interested you can click on www.detailplus.com - Training and Seminars or go to www.carwash.com
Look forward to seeing you there.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
Was at a Cadillac dealership in Portland one sunny day and noticed that every used car on the lot had buffer swirls.
Noting this to the used car manager he smiled and said,
"You know detailers." Then he said in all honesty, "actually our head detailer said, not to worry that as soon as the residual glaze washed off the car, the swirls would be gone."
Was not sure who was dumber, the detailer or the sales manager. Probably the sales manager who believed that story.
As they say, however, "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
I find that many private detailers do not have much more knowledge than dealership detailers. They criticize these people and consider themselves better, maybe because they operate their own business, but while they have a passion for the detailing business they are extremely deficient in their knowlegde.
On that line I might put in a plug for the series of "Detailing Seminars" that are sponsored by Professional Carwashing & Detailing that I will conduct this next Fall in Boston; New York; Atlanta; Dallas and Seattle.
If interested you can click on www.detailplus.com - Training and Seminars or go to www.carwash.com
Look forward to seeing you there.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Question about swirl marks on new cars June 25, 2003 06:02PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 98 |
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Re: Question about swirl marks on new cars June 25, 2003 10:49PM |
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Re: Question about swirl marks on new cars June 26, 2003 12:04AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 19 |
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Re: Question about swirl marks on new cars June 26, 2003 03:59AM |
<HTML>Hi there everyone. I have been reading this board for a month or two now and have found some very intresting and helpful hints on here.
I work as a detailer in a Ford dealership and thought I would add a few thoughts to this particular post.
None of our new cars are ever buffed . The only exception would be if we had to remove any minor scratches/blemishes that had occured while the vehicle was on the transporter which happens way too often ). Then they might have the scratch wet-sanded and then spot buffed , but never buffed all over. I can not for the life of me guess why any dealer would buff a brand new car . I know I have never seen a new vehicle on our lot with swirl marks on it . Used ones yes, new , never.
Bill, to answer your question,yes we use a high speed buffer , we have three different ones.The one we most commonly use is a variable speed one made by DeWalt and I would dearly love to get a cyclo buffer but the dealership wont buy one right now (sadly). I think (and the debate about this will rage for ever) that, with the right level of care , patience and correct use of the buffer and choice of pad , with the right compound or glaze, any used vehice that is black in color can be made to look like new and be made swirl mark free. It comes down to how long the dealership are prepared to give their detailers to detail a vehicle . 20 minutes isnt going to work, a couple of hours is the minimum for a small vehicle, all day when you reach the Ford Excursion/ Chevy Surbuban size range.
Bud, thank you for the comment defending dealer detailers. I think one soloution would be for the manufacturers themselves , to offer training/certification to the detailers at all their dealerships, after all, the techs get Ford Certification along with the parts and sales guys, why not the detail techs ? It's a part of the Motor Industry that needs more recognition I believe.
Sorry for rambling on so much, look forwards to getting to know you all.
If anyone is ever curious as to just how things are done in the dealership please feel free to ask !
P.S, would also be intrested in a Chicago area seminar .
Jim.</HTML>
I work as a detailer in a Ford dealership and thought I would add a few thoughts to this particular post.
None of our new cars are ever buffed . The only exception would be if we had to remove any minor scratches/blemishes that had occured while the vehicle was on the transporter which happens way too often ). Then they might have the scratch wet-sanded and then spot buffed , but never buffed all over. I can not for the life of me guess why any dealer would buff a brand new car . I know I have never seen a new vehicle on our lot with swirl marks on it . Used ones yes, new , never.
Bill, to answer your question,yes we use a high speed buffer , we have three different ones.The one we most commonly use is a variable speed one made by DeWalt and I would dearly love to get a cyclo buffer but the dealership wont buy one right now (sadly). I think (and the debate about this will rage for ever) that, with the right level of care , patience and correct use of the buffer and choice of pad , with the right compound or glaze, any used vehice that is black in color can be made to look like new and be made swirl mark free. It comes down to how long the dealership are prepared to give their detailers to detail a vehicle . 20 minutes isnt going to work, a couple of hours is the minimum for a small vehicle, all day when you reach the Ford Excursion/ Chevy Surbuban size range.
Bud, thank you for the comment defending dealer detailers. I think one soloution would be for the manufacturers themselves , to offer training/certification to the detailers at all their dealerships, after all, the techs get Ford Certification along with the parts and sales guys, why not the detail techs ? It's a part of the Motor Industry that needs more recognition I believe.
Sorry for rambling on so much, look forwards to getting to know you all.
If anyone is ever curious as to just how things are done in the dealership please feel free to ask !
P.S, would also be intrested in a Chicago area seminar .
Jim.</HTML>
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Re: Question about swirl marks on new cars June 26, 2003 03:40PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 288 |
<HTML> ok, this is a topic i can add to. back in the early to mid 90's i went to work at a dealership that would apply paint sealant via a rotary buffer and foam pad. i was told that this "hi-tech" method of application was viewed by the customers as something special. i was involved in retail work before and told these guys flat out that this was b.s. not only did these guys leave sealant in every crack and crevice-they were wasting product. the dealership was using car brite's poly plus at about 60 or 70 bucks a gallon.(waaay to much). there were some swirls visible depending on the detailer. also, in fairness, i had to "clean up" hundreds of vehicles that had been "touched up" at the port or factory. a favorite for those guys was to wet sand and buff with a compound and then let it go out to us for swirl removal.they did the bare minimum neccesary to fix the defect. i help get the orbital buffer invovled in the program along with a less expensive sealant. the swirls disappeared and there was no noticeable difference between sealants. i had a chance to experiment with alot of premium selants and can tell you first hand that they are not as bulletproof as most people think. frequent washing seemed like the only way to keep the "lot rot" and acid rain out after they were sealed.</HTML>
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Thanks everyonse for your input. June 26, 2003 05:23PM |
<HTML>Glad I raised the issue and got such a rich response. To Jim and other dealer detailers who may think I have little faith in their profession, please be assured I don't think all dealer detailers do not do the job correctly. If you guys were on the case I would make sure to get your name and let everyone I know what a great job you and your dealer do.
It is clear those who post on this forum have a great passion for the appearence of cars and hold their detailing to the highest standards. This means, as you say, needing to take the extra time to do the job right.
I wish all detailers would hold the same standards but I don't expect them to. That's ok. This is why I am reading and posting on this forum.
Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge. I hope to continue to pick some excellent tips here . Keep up the excellent work!
Best regards,
Bill</HTML>
It is clear those who post on this forum have a great passion for the appearence of cars and hold their detailing to the highest standards. This means, as you say, needing to take the extra time to do the job right.
I wish all detailers would hold the same standards but I don't expect them to. That's ok. This is why I am reading and posting on this forum.
Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge. I hope to continue to pick some excellent tips here . Keep up the excellent work!
Best regards,
Bill</HTML>
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Re: Thanks everyonse for your input. June 27, 2003 07:11AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 33 |
<HTML>The only reason to EVER use a rotary polisher is to remove severe oxidation, or lightly work on the edges of acid rain craters. Not only will the wool pads on these polishers leave swirl marks, they can also remove a LOT of paint!
You remember the term "burning" the paint? Make several passes over the edge of a pick-up's fender, and you'll quickly become familiar with it.
For decades, all we had were high-speed polishers. Because auto finishes were many mils thicker, it wasn't such a concern. Now, you not only have to worry about removing the clear coat, you have to worry about scratching it.
Enter.. foam polishing pads. No swirls! Maybe so, but they sure do produce the heat! Rotary polishers just aren't worth the risk, even in the hands of most professionals.
Orbitals can handle most of the paint flaws in average vehicles. The problem is finding a really good one. Over the counter brands are lightweight, powerless and useless.
The Porter Cable is ok, but still a bit light duty. (this is why most pros don't use it) the Gem and other large orbitals are too heavy for vertical detailing.
I believe the Cyclo is, and will always be, first choice. (I've had experience with all three). It will handle just about anything short of severe damage. Even that doesn't matter to me. In my opinion, a vehicle with severe paint damage should be taken to a body shop!
Didn't I hear about a detailing video series in the future from one of our top detailers? Can't say anymore. I'm sworn to secrecy.</HTML>
Go 24!
You remember the term "burning" the paint? Make several passes over the edge of a pick-up's fender, and you'll quickly become familiar with it.
For decades, all we had were high-speed polishers. Because auto finishes were many mils thicker, it wasn't such a concern. Now, you not only have to worry about removing the clear coat, you have to worry about scratching it.
Enter.. foam polishing pads. No swirls! Maybe so, but they sure do produce the heat! Rotary polishers just aren't worth the risk, even in the hands of most professionals.
Orbitals can handle most of the paint flaws in average vehicles. The problem is finding a really good one. Over the counter brands are lightweight, powerless and useless.
The Porter Cable is ok, but still a bit light duty. (this is why most pros don't use it) the Gem and other large orbitals are too heavy for vertical detailing.
I believe the Cyclo is, and will always be, first choice. (I've had experience with all three). It will handle just about anything short of severe damage. Even that doesn't matter to me. In my opinion, a vehicle with severe paint damage should be taken to a body shop!
Didn't I hear about a detailing video series in the future from one of our top detailers? Can't say anymore. I'm sworn to secrecy.</HTML>
Go 24!
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Re: Thanks everyonse for your input. June 27, 2003 12:43PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 55 |
<HTML>Irene I have to somewhat disagree with your posisition on the rotary buffer. I am quite new to buffing and thought long and hard about whether to buy a rotary or a orbital such as the PC or the Cyclo as you mentioned. In the end I decided on a variable speed rotary and purchased a Makita 9227. Much of my decision was based on reading the posts in this forum and opinions of many on this board.
I figured you can do everything with a rotary that you can with an orbital but you can't do everything with an orbital that you can with a rotary. I didn't want a situation were I couldn't permanetly correct a problem with an orbital where the rotary would.
I beleive that most paint damage with a rotary is a result of using the improper compound/pad combination or polish/pad combination used at the wrong speed rather than by the machine itself.
My first attempt at using a rotary was a black 2000 Monte Carlo SS. My own of course. The car had light scratches and a few medium to almost heavy scratches. I used a 3M #108 detail polish and a foam compounding pad at a speed of about 1600 rpm. The result I got were very pleasing. 90% of all the fine scratches were gone. I then stepped up to a #208 slightly more agressive polish and stuck with the foam polish pad in the areas were scratches were still visible and again the results were fantastic.
After that I waxed with 3M show car paste wax. My neighbor across the street actually asked if I had the car painted. The results were that significant. The car has since been washed several times and no signs of scratches or swirls.
I was at first very apprehensive to use the rotary due to all the boogey man stories people tell and perpetuate. And no doubt if one is not carefull you can get in trouble with one. I am sure the day wil come I will make the wrong decision on what compound or pad to use and create a problem. But if you can put it in with a buffer you can take it out with a buffer.
I do agree entirely with your statement that severe paint problems should be taken to a body shop for repair. That is the other aspect of using a rotary or any other device for that matter that one must also know what he cannot fix with the machine.</HTML>
I figured you can do everything with a rotary that you can with an orbital but you can't do everything with an orbital that you can with a rotary. I didn't want a situation were I couldn't permanetly correct a problem with an orbital where the rotary would.
I beleive that most paint damage with a rotary is a result of using the improper compound/pad combination or polish/pad combination used at the wrong speed rather than by the machine itself.
My first attempt at using a rotary was a black 2000 Monte Carlo SS. My own of course. The car had light scratches and a few medium to almost heavy scratches. I used a 3M #108 detail polish and a foam compounding pad at a speed of about 1600 rpm. The result I got were very pleasing. 90% of all the fine scratches were gone. I then stepped up to a #208 slightly more agressive polish and stuck with the foam polish pad in the areas were scratches were still visible and again the results were fantastic.
After that I waxed with 3M show car paste wax. My neighbor across the street actually asked if I had the car painted. The results were that significant. The car has since been washed several times and no signs of scratches or swirls.
I was at first very apprehensive to use the rotary due to all the boogey man stories people tell and perpetuate. And no doubt if one is not carefull you can get in trouble with one. I am sure the day wil come I will make the wrong decision on what compound or pad to use and create a problem. But if you can put it in with a buffer you can take it out with a buffer.
I do agree entirely with your statement that severe paint problems should be taken to a body shop for repair. That is the other aspect of using a rotary or any other device for that matter that one must also know what he cannot fix with the machine.</HTML>
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Re: Thanks everyonse for your input. June 27, 2003 12:52PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 55 |
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Re: Thanks everyonse for your input. June 27, 2003 01:46PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>I disagree with IRENE on this one too. A buffer is an essential tool for a detailer wanting to make corrections in paint finishes and to remove swirls.
Swirls are not caused by the buffer, they are caused by human ignorance and error, or improper use.
An orbital, any orbital is nothing but an applicator. It does not offer any permanent correction. It may cover up scratches and swirls but does not remove them.
Any professional detailer knows the purpose of the friction and a cutting pad to make corrections on paint finishes.
And, today's two part polyurethane enamel paint finishes do not soften like the laquers to yester year. In those days when you used a buffer and wool cutting pad you could smell the paint heating up.
An a dual head orbital, in my opinion, is archaic. Why two heads, when on works fine. Why another heavy, cumbersome tool like the 15lb GEM?
YOu can buy a 2lb Mini Orbital Waxer that can be held in one hand and you can wax an entire vehicle in 5 minutes with no fatigue. IT does require an air compressor and about 9 cubic feet of air per minute. You can get this from a 2.5HP compressor. If you can't use air then the alternative is the Porter Cable or the FLEX from Germany. Porter Cable copied this fine tool.
Sorry Irene to disagree with you, but we got to stay on top of things. You still promoting "levelers?"
Bud A</HTML>
buda
Swirls are not caused by the buffer, they are caused by human ignorance and error, or improper use.
An orbital, any orbital is nothing but an applicator. It does not offer any permanent correction. It may cover up scratches and swirls but does not remove them.
Any professional detailer knows the purpose of the friction and a cutting pad to make corrections on paint finishes.
And, today's two part polyurethane enamel paint finishes do not soften like the laquers to yester year. In those days when you used a buffer and wool cutting pad you could smell the paint heating up.
An a dual head orbital, in my opinion, is archaic. Why two heads, when on works fine. Why another heavy, cumbersome tool like the 15lb GEM?
YOu can buy a 2lb Mini Orbital Waxer that can be held in one hand and you can wax an entire vehicle in 5 minutes with no fatigue. IT does require an air compressor and about 9 cubic feet of air per minute. You can get this from a 2.5HP compressor. If you can't use air then the alternative is the Porter Cable or the FLEX from Germany. Porter Cable copied this fine tool.
Sorry Irene to disagree with you, but we got to stay on top of things. You still promoting "levelers?"
Bud A</HTML>
buda
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Re: Thanks everyonse for your input. June 27, 2003 05:15PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 14 |
<HTML>Well, sorry Bud and Keith, but I have to agree with Irene. The statement you made: "An orbital....does not offer any permanent correction. It may cover up scratches and swirls but does not remove them" is completely false, and I have proven it on not only my car, but clients vehicles as well.
I can assure you that swirls and slight scratches can be removed (not filled) with a PC and a cutting pad with the proper polish, especially from a single stage paint finish. I know this to be true, as I have done it many times. True, it may take a lot more time to acheive, but time is not the issue here. When you say that it does not offer any permanent correction... sorry, but that is misleading and incorrect. There is nothing you can say to convince me that what I saw with my own eyes did not happen. The swirls in my black car most assuredly are no longer there, and even more assuredly, are not merely filled in.
Sorry, but when the facts and proof exist that it can be done with a PC, I felt the need to speak out. There is no reason to own a rotary if you have the time and patience to use a PC with the proper products.... unless, that is, you have serious paint flaws - in which case you should visit a body shop, as mentioned earlier.</HTML>
I can assure you that swirls and slight scratches can be removed (not filled) with a PC and a cutting pad with the proper polish, especially from a single stage paint finish. I know this to be true, as I have done it many times. True, it may take a lot more time to acheive, but time is not the issue here. When you say that it does not offer any permanent correction... sorry, but that is misleading and incorrect. There is nothing you can say to convince me that what I saw with my own eyes did not happen. The swirls in my black car most assuredly are no longer there, and even more assuredly, are not merely filled in.
Sorry, but when the facts and proof exist that it can be done with a PC, I felt the need to speak out. There is no reason to own a rotary if you have the time and patience to use a PC with the proper products.... unless, that is, you have serious paint flaws - in which case you should visit a body shop, as mentioned earlier.</HTML>
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Re: Thanks everyonse for your input. June 27, 2003 05:52PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 17 |
<HTML>Rotary polishers are utlized exclusively by all body shops and OEM Dealerships across the country. I have never seen an orbital used in one of these facilities. There is a reason for that. Orbital polishers will not effectively buff out most imperfections on a paints finish in a reasonable amount of time. They are too slow and in most cases do not have enough RPM's to effectively utilize the better buffing compounds on the market. These compounds utilize heat, and pressure to break down and buff the surface to a swirl free finish. Although foam pads do generate some heat, the better foam pad compounds on the market take that into consideration in their formulations and dissipate that heat as they work on the surface. The rotaries do need a little extra caution from the operator as careless use can "burn the paint" as you say, however, they are an extremely effective tool and in the automotive aftermarket (body shops, dealerships) they are a necessity as they consider orbitals as toys for the home do-it-your-selfer.
The Chemist</HTML>
The Chemist</HTML>
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Re: Thanks everyonse for your input. June 27, 2003 06:48PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 33 |
<HTML>Bud, you are completely mistaken about orbitals not removing swirls and light scratches. Your problem is the hand held orbital. Of course it will not perform like a viable professional machine.
Your are also 100% incorrect about the dual head. There has never been a machine that can equal its performance or versatility. Not only does it and the Porter Cable remove surface flaws, they do it all over the country every day of the week.
I always opt on the side of safety when I recommend a machine to a detailer. I rarely recommend a rotary unless they are polishing aluminum. How can you ignore the saying: Accidents happen. If they happen on a customer's car, you've got a big expensive problem!
I also disagree with the use of several compounds in the same area with a rotary. You're removing more clear coat than you think. How many times can this be done? How many times has it already been done? You never now for sure, and I don't like the odds.
Absolutely keep using your rotarys. I will continue to sell them as well. But if you ask my opinion.. get a good orbital and make as many passes as you wish. What's wrong with peace of mind?</HTML>
Go 24!
Your are also 100% incorrect about the dual head. There has never been a machine that can equal its performance or versatility. Not only does it and the Porter Cable remove surface flaws, they do it all over the country every day of the week.
I always opt on the side of safety when I recommend a machine to a detailer. I rarely recommend a rotary unless they are polishing aluminum. How can you ignore the saying: Accidents happen. If they happen on a customer's car, you've got a big expensive problem!
I also disagree with the use of several compounds in the same area with a rotary. You're removing more clear coat than you think. How many times can this be done? How many times has it already been done? You never now for sure, and I don't like the odds.
Absolutely keep using your rotarys. I will continue to sell them as well. But if you ask my opinion.. get a good orbital and make as many passes as you wish. What's wrong with peace of mind?</HTML>
Go 24!
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Re: Thanks everyonse for your input. June 27, 2003 07:28PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Irene:
Take a look at the posting from the CHEMIST how do you dispute this?
Logic tells you that the action of an orbital is not such to create the friction needed to make a correction in paint. As I stated you can get more friction with your hand than you can with an orbital.
You seem to be like Clinton, ignoring logic and just keep repeating the same thing, even though it is logically not probable.
But let's put it to bed and have a buff-off. In Orlando in January the Mobile Tech Trim and Detail Expo will take place. I will be conducting a detailing seminar which will include a demonstration.
I invite you or anyone else to come with your orbitals; pads and chemicals to "prove" you can remove not fill scratches. Take the challenge!!!!
As they say, "money talks bs walks?"
Regards</HTML>
buda
Take a look at the posting from the CHEMIST how do you dispute this?
Logic tells you that the action of an orbital is not such to create the friction needed to make a correction in paint. As I stated you can get more friction with your hand than you can with an orbital.
You seem to be like Clinton, ignoring logic and just keep repeating the same thing, even though it is logically not probable.
But let's put it to bed and have a buff-off. In Orlando in January the Mobile Tech Trim and Detail Expo will take place. I will be conducting a detailing seminar which will include a demonstration.
I invite you or anyone else to come with your orbitals; pads and chemicals to "prove" you can remove not fill scratches. Take the challenge!!!!
As they say, "money talks bs walks?"
Regards</HTML>
buda
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Re: Thanks everyonse for your input. June 27, 2003 08:43PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 35 |
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Re: Thanks everyonse for your input. June 27, 2003 08:56PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 98 |
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Re: Thanks everyonse for your input. June 27, 2003 09:01PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 98 |
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Re: Thanks everyonse for your input. June 27, 2003 09:26PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>That is another of the many myths in detailing.
A professional detailer will use whatever tools they need to get the job done.
The rotary buffer is designed to correct a paint finish problem the appropriate cutting pad, either wool; poly/wool; or foam appropriate compound from heavy to micro fine.
It is also used with a polishing pad, either foam or sheepskin, and a swirl remover/polish to remove swirls from buffing or to create a high shine.
The Orbital, in my opinion, is strictly an applicator of wax/sealant and a remover.
Some think that if they use an aggressive chemical they can correct I believe this is wrong.
If you consider what the CHEMIST stated that in his experience he has never seen one in a body shop that makes good sense. Wny? The only thing a body shop does is buff and polish, remove swirls. They do not apply wax to cars because you cannot seal a new paint for 60 days so they have no reason for an applicator of wax.
They exclusively buff and polish and they use RotaryBuffers, not orbitals.
Some detailers do not understand how to use an orbital so they buff and polish with a rotary buffer and wax by hand.
Inexperienced detailers or those given bad information by suppliers buy orbitals with the idea they can repair scratches, take off oxidation; remove water spots, etc with an orbital but they are wrong. They might cover them up, but not remove them.
Regards
Bud A</HTML>
buda
A professional detailer will use whatever tools they need to get the job done.
The rotary buffer is designed to correct a paint finish problem the appropriate cutting pad, either wool; poly/wool; or foam appropriate compound from heavy to micro fine.
It is also used with a polishing pad, either foam or sheepskin, and a swirl remover/polish to remove swirls from buffing or to create a high shine.
The Orbital, in my opinion, is strictly an applicator of wax/sealant and a remover.
Some think that if they use an aggressive chemical they can correct I believe this is wrong.
If you consider what the CHEMIST stated that in his experience he has never seen one in a body shop that makes good sense. Wny? The only thing a body shop does is buff and polish, remove swirls. They do not apply wax to cars because you cannot seal a new paint for 60 days so they have no reason for an applicator of wax.
They exclusively buff and polish and they use RotaryBuffers, not orbitals.
Some detailers do not understand how to use an orbital so they buff and polish with a rotary buffer and wax by hand.
Inexperienced detailers or those given bad information by suppliers buy orbitals with the idea they can repair scratches, take off oxidation; remove water spots, etc with an orbital but they are wrong. They might cover them up, but not remove them.
Regards
Bud A</HTML>
buda
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Re: Thanks everyonse for your input. June 27, 2003 10:19PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 33 |
<HTML>Bud, just what is all of that supposed to mean?
Sometimes I wonder why I try to make a point with you (we used to be on another carwash forum). In your mind, you're always right, even if the other person has had hands-on experience with a particular technique. Bud, you are not always right, and you make it difficult for others to give good advice.
In this instance, your comments were tacky as well as incorrect. (Haven't we been down that road before)?
I repeat that my advice about the performance of the orbitals is RIGHT! I have been in this business for 16 years and have sold hundreds of orbitals to hundreds of professional detailers and auto enthusiasts who are using them every day to remove swirls, oxidation and light scratches.
But.. if you believe Bud, all the orbital users have been seeing visions and should just toss their machines.. or.. I guess the flaws they've been removing will suddenly reappear at some unknown time in the future. My goodness, I better warn all of them. Lets see.. where do I find that list?</HTML>
Go 24!
Sometimes I wonder why I try to make a point with you (we used to be on another carwash forum). In your mind, you're always right, even if the other person has had hands-on experience with a particular technique. Bud, you are not always right, and you make it difficult for others to give good advice.
In this instance, your comments were tacky as well as incorrect. (Haven't we been down that road before)?
I repeat that my advice about the performance of the orbitals is RIGHT! I have been in this business for 16 years and have sold hundreds of orbitals to hundreds of professional detailers and auto enthusiasts who are using them every day to remove swirls, oxidation and light scratches.
But.. if you believe Bud, all the orbital users have been seeing visions and should just toss their machines.. or.. I guess the flaws they've been removing will suddenly reappear at some unknown time in the future. My goodness, I better warn all of them. Lets see.. where do I find that list?</HTML>
Go 24!
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Re: Thanks everyonse for your input. June 27, 2003 11:24PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Irene, Irene:
You need not take a disagreement with what you say PERSONALLY.
You need not attack me personally if I disagree with you.
All you need do is back up what you say, and refute what I say.
Because you have sold many orbitals for the purpose of buffing, which they are not, does not mean that they work to remove scratches and swirls.
How do you know? What test procedure can you provide that would prove that what you say about orbitals is true?
I have nothing against you personally, as you know, we are both in the same camp politically and philosphicallly.
However some of the things you say are not accurate, and are some of the myths that are spread in this industry.
If Ichallenge what you say it is not that "I need to be right" it is in my experience they do not do what you say.
Our company, like yours, sells both orbitals and buffers, so it makes no difference to me which one a person purchases other than I want to give them correct information.
Take the CHALLENGE. Get out of your office and come to a trade show, in this case, the one in Orlando in January and bring your orbital; pads and chemicals and I will give you a chance to demonstrate how orbitals can remove scratches.
Or, you can come to my seminar in either Atlanta or Dallas and I will allow you time to demo this technique.
Nothing personal; not trying to be right, I just want proof of something I think is not true.
If this were not such a critical issue I would be communicating with you personally to avoid any personal affronts that you may feel that I am making toward you. But since there are none and because the detailers have a right to know I do it on the forum.
Regards
Bud A</HTML>
buda
You need not take a disagreement with what you say PERSONALLY.
You need not attack me personally if I disagree with you.
All you need do is back up what you say, and refute what I say.
Because you have sold many orbitals for the purpose of buffing, which they are not, does not mean that they work to remove scratches and swirls.
How do you know? What test procedure can you provide that would prove that what you say about orbitals is true?
I have nothing against you personally, as you know, we are both in the same camp politically and philosphicallly.
However some of the things you say are not accurate, and are some of the myths that are spread in this industry.
If Ichallenge what you say it is not that "I need to be right" it is in my experience they do not do what you say.
Our company, like yours, sells both orbitals and buffers, so it makes no difference to me which one a person purchases other than I want to give them correct information.
Take the CHALLENGE. Get out of your office and come to a trade show, in this case, the one in Orlando in January and bring your orbital; pads and chemicals and I will give you a chance to demonstrate how orbitals can remove scratches.
Or, you can come to my seminar in either Atlanta or Dallas and I will allow you time to demo this technique.
Nothing personal; not trying to be right, I just want proof of something I think is not true.
If this were not such a critical issue I would be communicating with you personally to avoid any personal affronts that you may feel that I am making toward you. But since there are none and because the detailers have a right to know I do it on the forum.
Regards
Bud A</HTML>
buda
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Re: Thanks everyonse for your input. June 28, 2003 01:02AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 33 |
<HTML>Bud, The members are right, you are turning a different opinion into a boring argument which no one can win. It's getting us nowhere and can cause future members to avoid entering the topic. I officially give up on this argument and concede to your superior knowledge.
I thought by entering this forum, I could contribute some experience for those with concerns and questions. I have always advised common sense with detailing, and to use what works for you. I also always advise on the side of safety and it hasn't let me down.
I only want to help others solve some problems, and hopefully will be able to in the future.</HTML>
Go 24!
I thought by entering this forum, I could contribute some experience for those with concerns and questions. I have always advised common sense with detailing, and to use what works for you. I also always advise on the side of safety and it hasn't let me down.
I only want to help others solve some problems, and hopefully will be able to in the future.</HTML>
Go 24!
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Re: Thanks everyonse for your input. June 28, 2003 01:39AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 137 |
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Re: Thanks everyonse for your input. June 28, 2003 06:28AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 33 |
<HTML>I totally agree with Jerry. I only visited for ONE WEEK and am so aggravated I think I'm done.
I have always thought I could help others without promoting products and I certainly do not want anyone thinking that is my purpose. I apologize if anyone got that impression. Gosh, I love discussing detailing techniques and secrets to success, but will gladly leave the forum to avoid any misunderstanding.
Thanks to all for the invitation to enter other topic discussions during the week. I enjoyed them a great deal. Good luck, and may you all have many days of beautiful detailing weather!</HTML>
Go 24!
I have always thought I could help others without promoting products and I certainly do not want anyone thinking that is my purpose. I apologize if anyone got that impression. Gosh, I love discussing detailing techniques and secrets to success, but will gladly leave the forum to avoid any misunderstanding.
Thanks to all for the invitation to enter other topic discussions during the week. I enjoyed them a great deal. Good luck, and may you all have many days of beautiful detailing weather!</HTML>
Go 24!
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